Author Topic: Disclosing contents of hands - Rule 41 clarification  (Read 10111 times)

K-Lo

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Disclosing contents of hands - Rule 41 clarification
« on: November 04, 2010, 11:45:32 PM »
Rule 41 states in part that players whether in the hand or not, may not disclose contents of live or folded hands.

Is it correct to interpret this rule as meaning the player may not disclose contents of live or folded hand "while a hand is in progress", or should it be interpreted as "anytime"?

For example, if player A is about to fold, but before doing so, he shows his neighbor his cards.  This, I understand, violates the one-player-to-a-hand rule presumably because, even if his neighbor has already folded, that neighbor is getting information about how player A plays that the other players at the table (and the tournament) are not privy to.  According to the rule, players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times.

As a further example, everyone folds to player A in the small blind.  Player A raises, and Player B in the big blind folds.  Player A flashes an Ace. Now, I see this all the time, and presumably, no one has an issue with it because the hand is no longer in progress...?  But isn't this effectively giving the players at that table an advantage (who can see how Player A plays) over other players at other tables in the tournament, like the example above?

What about this situation then:  player A and player B are in a hand, the flop comes down 9-9-4.  Player A bets, player B folds.  The hand is over, and player C says, "well he couldn't have had a 9 because I folded one".  Player D says "me too, I think I had 92o".  Are these disclosures permissible under the rule, even though the disclosures are not during a live hand?  If this is not permissible, shouldn't the Ace-flashing example also be impermissible?  If it is permissible, why wouldn't it be akin to advising other players at the table of Player A's betting strategy?

 



« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 11:56:59 PM by K-Lo »

chet

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Re: Disclosing contents of hands - Rule 41 clarification
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2010, 10:30:35 AM »
In my opinion, once the hand is over and the pot has been awarded by the dealer, rule 41 no longer applies since no player at that table can gain any advantage while the hand is in progress.  You make an interesting point about players at other tables, however, it would be impossible to 'police'.  Consider what you would/could do at the WSOP where you have players not only at several dozen different tables, but these tables are spread between different physical locations. 

As I understand the intent of the rule it is to apply to a given hand at a given table. 

Hope this helps!

pokerfish

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Re: Disclosing contents of hands - Rule 41 clarification
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2010, 10:04:28 AM »
Hi,
Good questions.... while it is an interesting concept about gaining knowledge after the fact, most of us lie. That's what poker is about. In the 994 example, when one says "I had a 9" and another then says it, how often do more players say the same thing? It is gamesmanship and I don't see any reason to intervene from the floor with this type of table banter. What happens at one table has no bearing on another and messing with peoples' heads is a large part what poker is. Flashing a card during its progress should not be allowed.... and that should be addressed IMO.
Jan
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K-Lo

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Re: Disclosing contents of hands - Rule 41 clarification
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2010, 02:41:46 PM »
Thanks for the feedback.

On a related note, I note that point #2 of Rule 41 is worded differently.  There it does say "Advise or criticize play at any time".  Is that intentional?  Are we still talking about during a hand?

For example, A and B are involved in a big pot.  A wins the pot, showing pocket Aces.  B is distraught.  Player C says "What a stupid call [by B]!  You're a terrible player.  Even I knew he had Aces.  He hasn't played a hand all night!"   Would this be considered permissible criticism since it is after completion of a hand?

chet

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Re: Disclosing contents of hands - Rule 41 clarification
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2010, 04:30:14 PM »
You raise a good point.  I will modify my earlier response accordingly.  It is NEVER appropriate, in my opinion, to advise another player how he/she should have played the prior hand or to criticize how a prior hand was played.  This part of the rule should apply whether there is action or between hands.  Remember however, the TDA rules apply ONLY to tournaments, not live games. Update:  I would also consider TDA Rule 44 when considering between hands conduct. 

Perhaps some clarifying language can be discussed and added at the next summit.

Hope this helps!

« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 07:14:00 PM by chet »

pokerfish

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Re: Disclosing contents of hands - Rule 41 clarification
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2010, 08:59:14 PM »
Good points, guys.... remember, we do have the etiquette rule and also the TDs decision is final so he can always give a penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct or similar. As Chet mentioned, we will look into this the next time we all meet. It is never ok to disrespect another whether a hand is in play or not.
Jan
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K-Lo

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Re: Disclosing contents of hands - Rule 41 clarification
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2010, 08:35:58 AM »
Thanks, Chet and Jan.  It's interesting that you point out the etiquette "faux-pas" of the scenario first.  The first thing that came to my mind was more about Player C revealing an aspect about Player A's play to the whole table (thus putting A at a disadvantage and effectively "coaching" the other players at the table), rather than the trash talking - which I agree is also bad.  I guess I've been more conditioned to the trash talk.  ;-)

pokerfish

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Re: Disclosing contents of hands - Rule 41 clarification
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2010, 03:15:51 PM »
It's funny you mention this. I'm in Pendleton, OR and just busted out of a shoot out, and hated that they were coaching each other... oh, she was making a move, she had to push, etc. But bringing it up usually is counter productive for a player. Hopefully the TD will hear and stop that.
Jan
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