Author Topic: 4 Burn Cards  (Read 8176 times)

Stuart Murray

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4 Burn Cards
« on: August 13, 2010, 11:37:32 PM »
This came through to me last night, I have already replied but I would be interested in everyone elses 'take' on this item, I will folllow up with my ruling later

Self Deal, NLHE

Heads up the dealer is Player A and Player B wins the hand and the match but then Player A notices that he has burned 4 cards and cannot recall where he went wrong and calls for the hand to be replayed ?



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Re: 4 Burn Cards
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2010, 09:58:59 AM »
My thoughts would be that since there was substantial action, (In fact the hand was completed and the pot awarded) barring any substantiated collusion or cheating, the hand stands as played. 

Hope this helps!

Nick C

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Re: 4 Burn Cards
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2010, 01:15:55 PM »
I agree with Chet. It's too late to change anything. I really find this interesting because it is a self deal and the dealer (who is responsible for any mistake) is the one complaining? After substantial action, it's too late.

Stuart Murray

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Re: 4 Burn Cards
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2010, 03:43:53 PM »
Cheers Guys,

Yeh I gave the same verdict, unfortunately it happened in a venue where there was no TD so, the tournament organiser ruled the hand a misdeal! the complainant then went on to win the tourney!  I was asked if the tournament scoring could be changed to reflect the true winner but I said that the floor's ruling at the time must stand (however incorrect it was!)

I am also with you Nick regarding the self deal dealer making the mistake and then complaining about his mistake - 4 burn cards when the self-dealing dealer was all-in shreaks as very suspicious to myself, and I would be even less likely to try and change the board cards.


Under what you have described there is no reason to rule a mis-deal, more so once action has occurred on a hand a mis-deal cannot be called, and the hand must be played out in as fair a way as possible.

Robertís Rules of Poker cites the following:

1. Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called. The deal will be played, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on their hands. In stud games, action is considered to occur when two players after the forced bet have acted on their hands.
2. The following circumstances cause a misdeal, provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands.
(a) The first or second card of the hand has been exposed by a dealer error.
(b) Two or more cards have been exposed by the dealer.
(c) Two or more boxed cards (improperly faced cards) are found.
(d) Two or more extra cards have been dealt in the starting hands of a game.
(e) An incorrect number of cards has been dealt to a player, except the top card may be dealt if it goes to the player in proper sequence.
(f) Any card has been dealt out of the proper sequence (except an exposed card may be replaced by the burncard).
(g) The button was out of position.
(h) The first card was dealt to the wrong position.
(i) Cards have been dealt to an empty seat or a player not entitled to a hand.
(j) A player has been dealt out who is entitled to a hand. This player must be present at the table or have posted a blind or ante.
16. If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. On the last round, if there was no betting because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded, provided the deck stub, boardcards, and burncards are all sufficiently intact to determine the proper replacement card.

From what you have described, you cannot ascertain where the error occurred during the hand, so therefore cannot identify which board cards are incorrect or which burn-cards are incorrect, therefore the hand must stand as-is.

Hope this helps

« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 03:46:35 PM by Stuart Murray »