Author Topic: Strange Betting  (Read 16008 times)

pineforest

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Strange Betting
« on: June 25, 2010, 01:32:30 PM »
Hey guys,
Here is something I've seen more and more lately and I would like your opinions.  Players stating bets, but putting out more chips than the stated bet.

example - Tournament, blinds are 100-200.  Player A states his bet as raise to 525 and puts out a 1000 chip and a 25 chip.  Everyone folds to the BB who takes his BB 200 back and throws in a 1000 chip and a 25 chip and says nothing.  The dealer then gives him 500 change the BB stops the dealer and says I raised 500.  The dealer says you did not state your raise so it is just a call. the player says, but I threw in 2 chips to constitute a raise. the floor was then called and the floor also said it was a call. (now the dealer did a poor job explaining the action to the floor and I feel the floor call was wrong and it should have been ruled a raise, I also feel the floor would have got the call right had the dealer done a better job explaining the action( as this was at the wsop 1pm daily tournament)

I see these kind of raises more and more and I think something should be done.  IMO the dealer shouldmake change right away or push back the 25 chip and state to the table that the bet is 525. We don't need to have extra chips in the betting area. Next thing players will be putting out 1, 1000 chip and 2, 100 chips as a 700 bet.

Has anyone else seen this???

I can't wait to hear you replies,

Nick C

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2010, 03:41:02 PM »
pineforest,
 
 Verbal bets are binding. Therefore when a player announces an amount and pushes a different amount, they are liable to the spoken amount. You are correct about the dealer. The dealer should have called the bet as 525 and given 500 back to Player A. When a good dealer controls the game and calls the action properly, most of these problems don't exist. The fact that only two players remain in the hand, and the way the dealer handled the incident, I would have no problem allowing that raise. I have to agree with all that you say. The dealer could have easily made things much more clear. Giving change back is okay but, a quick verbal announcement from the dealer should have clarified the bet and then the 1000 and the 25 chips placed into the betting area by the big blind, (especially when he retracted his 200 BB) would have been accepted as a raise.

It would have been nice if the big blind said "raise," wouldn't it?  End of problem. Some day, a player might have to announce his raise, but until then, we will have to deal with these situations. The bad news is, we don't always make the right call.

That's how I see it.


MikeB

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2010, 07:13:22 PM »
Pine: I'm usually going to call this a raise. The guy tosses out a raise value of chips with no verbal, that's a raise. Just point to the chips and say "raise", if that's not what he intended, he'll be more careful next time, and the whole table will be too.... That said, IMO it's not inappropriate to ask the player for clarification if you have some reason to doubt (a gesture or something): "Sir do you intend a raise or call here?". But control and consistency is really important, so people know they have to be careful about pushing undeclared chip amounts forward, otherwise chaos can set in.

Nick C

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2010, 08:14:38 PM »
Mike,
 Players have an obligation to make sure that their actions are clear to all, whatever they do, fold, call, bet, or raise. I don't think that advising a dealer to ask a player what their intentions are; "Sir do you intend a raise or call here? That is not the answer. Why don't we come up with a rule that insists a player announce his raise. I know that's a tough one for some players........RAISE.  maybe they're afraid their voice will "crack" when they are bluffing!

Stuart Murray

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2010, 01:01:33 AM »
I have saw things like this, but only where card-rooms give a ridiculous amount of chips in the players starting stack such a 4x25, 4x100, 1x500, 4x1000 for a 5k tourney, but it does force the players to educate themsleves to the correct ettiquette and betting and raising procedures.

I would rule the 1000 and 25 as a raise as it does not fall within the mulltiple same denomination chips rule so therefore can not be taken as a call, even if there was some confusion, by the book it is a raise to 1025 total.  The player acted correctly with his silent raise, I often play quietly but to be honest I would use more chips to make the same raise (for example 2x500 and 1x25)

Regards
Stuart

edlerman

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2010, 05:04:39 PM »
Hi Stuart - by ridiculous amounts, do you feel this is not enough of each denomination, or too many?  I can only assume not enough?

Stuart Murray

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2010, 05:53:06 PM »
yes I don't believe such sets per player to be adequate for the early to middle stages of a tourney, my recommended starting stacks shall contain 8x25 and 8x100.

With only 4 of each colour it can often cause problems ensuring players have correct change, players have to verbalise more actions they make so therefore I believe it not to be in the best interests of the game, more-so with a good structure that includes antes and deep levels, for example 75/150 or 300/600/a75 and with so little sets per player it means so many low values are already in use before action commences on the hand.

Many of the situations we see with regard to chip betting errors or confusion regarding players bets could be eradicated if players had sufficient chips in the first place that they could make their bets clear and correct.

Best Regards
Stuart

pineforest

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2010, 05:45:05 PM »
Hi guys,

Thanks for the input. 

My real point is that players should not be allowed to put extra chips in the betting area.  It opens the door for someone to take an angle shot.  the extra chips could be a shot too.  I understand we don't want to have a lot of extra rules but it would be nice if a rule addressed this.  As a player and dealer I see this type of betting a lot in the casinos in Las Vegas.  As a dealer I have always pushed back the extra chips and anounced the raise.  As a floor / TD I don't see it unless a dealer call my attention to it.  Dealers that don't play poker are oblivious to this being an issue.  I have instructed my dealers to make change right away or push back the extra chip (s) and clearly anounce the raise. I was actually the player in the BB who put in the 1000 chip and 25 chip and said nothing.  I understand it is the players responsibility to make their action clear.... but you all know how players are.... I just wanted to see how the wsop dealt with the situation.  After discussing it with 5 floor people at the wsop 2 said they would rule it a raise and 3 said they would rule it a call.  7 other non-wsop floors I discussed it with said they would rule it a raise, and I also would rule it a raise. When I do the announcements at the beginning of a tournaments I always say "players...make your action clear and protect your hand at all times." Like anyone is listening.... LOL 

I never understood players that makes actions that are unclear, unless they were trying to take a shot, and I have no problem addressing the shot takers.

Peace,


pineforest

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2010, 05:56:09 PM »
Stewart,

In the original story the player that put out the 1000 chip and the 25 chip also had about 20 - 100 unit chips and could have put in the proper amount but chose to do it the way he did.  He was doing this type of betting from the moment I was seated at the table and it was getting under my skin. that is why I did what I did.

Now here is the really interesting thing.  When I was polling the wsop td's 2 of them that said they would rule it a call, also said that if the player had put out the exact amount 525, ( raise of 325) and a player threw in a 1000 chip and a 25 chip after and said nothing they would still rule it a call.....and that blows my mind!!!!

Nick C

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2010, 07:40:49 PM »
pineforest,

 This is very interesting. The only thing I would like to clarify is the last example that you gave when you said that the player put out the exact amount 525 (the initial raiser) and then a player throws in a 1000 and a 25 and says nothing. If the two chips were tossed in at the same time, it's a raise. If the 1000 is tossed in and then the 25, it's a call. Here is some more to think about; even if the player that follows the 325 raise (to a 525 total), tosses in two 500's it's still only a call. And by the way, the minimum raise could have totaled 850 (325more). The raiser in this case would have had to announce  "raise to 850" or toss in a combination of chips that equaled that amount (one-500 three-100's and two 25's) for example. It would sure help the dealers, if the players had to announce clearly when, and how much they are raising. In a rule book writen by an author I respect, under Etiquite is writen; a raise should be announced.

MikeB

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2010, 07:45:36 PM »
Stewart,

Now here is the really interesting thing.  When I was polling the wsop td's 2 of them that said they would rule it a call, also said that if the player had put out the exact amount 525, ( raise of 325) and a player threw in a 1000 chip and a 25 chip after and said nothing they would still rule it a call.....and that blows my mind!!!!
Pine: To your latter example... if the player tosses out the 1000 THEN the 25 afterwards, you have a single-overchip (1000) w/o verbal declaration, and that would be a call. The 25 in that context would be construed as merely an offer to make the change easy.

I would expect that the TD's you talked to who saw 1000 + 25 as a call were interpreting the ACTION as a request for change. If that is what you interpret the action to be, then of course it is a call. That goes to the idea that there is something beyond the mere silent placement of chips (a gesture, the circumstances, etc.) which favors the interpretation of a call. But as a blanket read, 2 chips silently of different denominations which total enough for a raise is a raise. I'm curious, did the TD's you talked to say they would decline the players insistance that it's a raise? I can't explain that one, unless again they felt the gesture was so clearly a request for change and felt the raise declaration later was a shot.

All this parsing aside, there's a bigger issue and that is maintaining order. I feel that strictly interpreting action like this as a raise in the long runs gives you more consistent control of the game, and thats another reason to call it a raise. If that's not what was intended by the player, you're sending a message that they have to be more careful...
« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 07:49:37 PM by MikeB »

Mrsvelvet

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2010, 10:20:44 AM »
Hi Guys

Very Interesting topic and I have recently had to introduce a "House Rule" within my events to stop it as it causes nothing but aggravation for the players, dealers and Floor persons and I as a TD.

"Silent / Undeclared actions are Not Allowed, in the instance where a player throws / places multiple (2 or more) chips into the betting area without declaring their intent or action prior to the chips entering the betting area shall have their chips returned, in the instances of repeat violations the offending player shall be subject to escalating Penalties"

This whole scenario is so easily avoided by a simple world from the player.. "Raise" / "Call" ect... Yes, good table management can also avoid this but it "Burns time from the Blinds" whilst it gets sorted out, (Bad for the Players) Causes Confusion, (Bad for the Players and Dealer) and can lead to arguments (Bad for everyone), a simple word "Raise" / "Call" makes things so much clearer, fairer and simpler for all concerned.

To put it short I strongly believe that placing the responsibility directly with the player to "Clearly define their intended actions prior to any action being taken by that player" is the way forward

As I have previously said I have introduced this rule into my Tournaments (and all other) events (about 3 months ago) and everyone is (now) happy with it, for me its working and has solved a lot of unnecessary grief.

A Simple solution to a Simple Problem..

Nick C

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2010, 10:49:20 AM »
Mrsvelvet,

  I'm with you on this one. I think it would be a great topic for discusion and making it a rule. Why not? If you are going to raise, say it, or tell the dealer what your intentions are. I like your house rule, it's easy enough and I think the benefits would sure outweigh the problems.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2010, 04:48:58 PM »
I fully understand why you have implemented this rule mrsvelvet, however their is another consideration I would give that would not allow me to introduce such a rule and that is information;

to force players to verbalise their actions gives extra information to players at the table, for example I remember a situation on Poker after dark, where one of the players was being interviewed and she said another player announced check in two different tones of voice and she was figuring out what that meant - I myself listen to the way poker players announce their actions and can draw reads on the way they announce their intent.

Allowing players to act in silent is IMO an important part of poker, I would be pretty pissed if I slid in a clear raise using multiple chips only to have it returned and informed I must announce my action.  Most of my players have been educated to a high level where agents exist and those agents have been trained by me under the TDA rules and objectives and RROP rules, which gives a very high level of player education - I would actually say most of my players etiquette levels are better than many pro players, as they do not use shots in the dark to ruse other players and are very tolerant to the newbies who have no or little etiquette or understanding of the finer points of live games.

I do see however how this can simplify betting and raising within your games and applaud you for a house rule out of the norm, but for me player education really is the way forward.

Best Regards
Stuart

pineforest

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Re: Strange Betting
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2010, 05:44:02 AM »
I have to agree with stuwart about allowing non verbal raises.  I just hate the way that some players bet by putting extra chips in the betting area.  The easy solution to this is to have dealers either make change or push back the extra chips before the action progresses.  But you just cant train all the new dealers you hire for special events.  I've got about 70 temps right now.  Clearly it is on the player to make their action clear. if they don't they are leaving it up to the what the dealer assumes or the floor decides (if the dealer is smart enough to call the floor when they start to lose control) and the player is subject to what ever is decided whether right or wrong.  (Floor decisions are final) 

I thought this was a good topic because it is something I've seen more and more over the past few months and I can see where it could cause potential issues during play.

Thanks for the input...