Author Topic: Button moved early, significant action already  (Read 6515 times)

aventajado

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Button moved early, significant action already
« on: June 11, 2010, 12:37:19 AM »
Here was a situation in my last tournament that i was the TD, the dealere button got moved from seat 5 to seat 7 after one deal. The player in seat 6 said nothing until there was a raise from seat three and a call from seat four. She raised her objection that she was supposed to be the button that hand, so I was summoned to the table to adjudicate.

I ruled that since there was significant action already, the button placement had to stay and continue its course through the tournament. My thinking was of course the first rule, which is what is the most fair to the players and for the game. What do you guys think?

Nick C

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Re: Button moved early, significant action already
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2010, 02:28:55 AM »
I think you did the right thing. Substantial action had taken place so the hand should be played out. That does raise an interesting question though. What adjustments were made to the players that were skipped on their blinds? Skipping player 6 would miss the big blind for player 8 for that round. I'm all ears on this one.

Nick C

Stuart Murray

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Re: Button moved early, significant action already
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2010, 07:09:32 AM »
Yip, agreed, the hand plays with the positions as is.

The positions should be corrected at the earliest hand of convenience so the button can just go straight back to seat 6 on the next hand, if someone for example took the BB twice in a row you can miss them the next orbit to correct the situation.

Forgot to add, it must be substantial action before the hand will play out, at the moment concensus and RROP says 2 people acting on their starting hands, this includes passing.

Best Regards
Stuart

Taken From RROP:


MISDEALS
1. Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called. The deal will be played, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on their hands. In stud games, action is considered to occur when two players after the forced bet have acted on their hands.
2. The following circumstances cause a misdeal, provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands.
(a) The first or second card of the hand has been exposed by a dealer error.
(b) Two or more cards have been exposed by the dealer.
(c) Two or more boxed cards (improperly faced cards) are found.
(d) Two or more extra cards have been dealt in the starting hands of a game.
(e) An incorrect number of cards has been dealt to a player, except the top card may be dealt if it goes to the player in proper sequence.
(f) Any card has been dealt out of the proper sequence (except an exposed card may be replaced by the burncard).
(g) The button was out of position.
(h) The first card was dealt to the wrong position.
(i) Cards have been dealt to an empty seat or a player not entitled to a hand.
(j) A player has been dealt out who is entitled to a hand. This player must be present at the table or have posted a blind or ante.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 07:13:20 AM by Stuart Murray »

Nick C

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Re: Button moved early, significant action already
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2010, 07:47:49 AM »
Thanks Stuart,
 I think we all agreed that there was substatial action. My concern is what happens on the next hand; is the button backed-up to seat 6? If so, you would then skip the button to seat 7 (who had it by mistake on the last hand) and go to seat 8? I guess I'm trying to find a rule that might cover this mistake. I'm not in disagreement with your suggestion. It certainly disrupts the movement of the blinds for a couple hands, doesn't it.

Mike, are you there?

Stuart Murray

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Re: Button moved early, significant action already
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2010, 07:06:00 PM »

Hi Nick,

Yeh, basically as you are aware everyone has to take the BB, the Button and SB are irrelevant.

So in this situation BB goes (skips) from seat 7 to seat 9, the next hand BB is seat 8, then next to be BB is seat 10 (assuming a full table) it does cause some disruption for a few hands but this ensures everyone takes the BB as soon as possible to correct the error, I find it happens most with rookie players who move the button for the dealer and then the dealer moves it or vice versa.

If someone takes the BB twice for some erroneous reason they would miss the next orbit round to avoid the "no-one can be BB twice or miss their BB" rule.

Regards
Stuart

Nick C

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Re: Button moved early, significant action already
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2010, 07:43:15 PM »
Thanks Stuart,

 It sounds pretty logical to me.

Nick C

Martin L. Waller

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Re: Button moved early, significant action already
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2010, 10:10:02 AM »
OK, fellows I may be too simple in my thinking but to keep down confusion and affecting two or three more hands wouldn’t it be simpler just to have Seat 8 post his BB next on the button next hand?

Hand 1, Seat 6 gets missed; Seat 7 is on the button and missed his SB, 8 posts SB, 9 posts BB.

Hand 2, Seat 7 is behind the button, 8 is on the button, since he missed his BB he posts it on the button, 9 posts SB and 10 posts BB.

Everything is back to normal and play continues. 

Good game to you,
Martin

Stuart Murray

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Re: Button moved early, significant action already
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2010, 02:01:16 PM »
Hi Martin,

Simple answer no.  Because you are always going to have an unbalanced button then, remember the rule the BB moves round the table, not the Button or SB (The BB is the locomotive and the SB and Button are the carriages following the locomotive round the track)

You must correct the situation in a manner that causes everyone who is entitled or required to take each position get that position, if you do it your way players will rightly complain that they havent had the button or SB.

Regards
Stuart