Author Topic: Rule 46 question  (Read 4230 times)

MathieuP75

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Rule 46 question
« on: August 09, 2021, 05:40:47 AM »
Hello everyone.

I have a question regarding rule 46 :

"Adding multiple new chips is a Rule 45 multiple chip bet if one of the smallest new chips is not
needed to make the call (drop a 1k and 500 chip onto the two 25ís is a total bet of 1550). Per
Rule 45, a silent multi-chip bet is a raise if it hits the 50% threshold; otherwise it is a call."



A bets 400
B raises 1000
A puts 1200 (1000, 2x100) without touching his/her 400.

Is it a call or a raise to 1600?

In other words, do you add the untouched chips only once it's established it's a raise per rule 45 or do you add the untouched chips to established if it's a raise per rule 45 ?


ps: Whatever the answer is, I think a clarification should be added in the next version.

Dave Miller

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Re: Rule 46 question
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2021, 10:16:12 AM »
ps: Whatever the answer is, I think a clarification should be added in the next version.
Wow. So many thoughts going thru my head. Some of them are contradictory, making me thankful for Rule One. 😵‍💫

In fact, your PS is the only part Iím sure of. 👍
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Rule 46 question
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2021, 02:23:30 AM »
In the original question without verbal clarification from the bettor, we will always have confusion. This is probably not the answer you're looking for. It seems to me that sometimes we go out of our way to confuse players. If Adam bets 400 and Bob says raise 1000, it used to be a total bet of 1400. I'm not sure when this rule was changed, but it still confuses me.
If I'm playing and I am facing a 400 bet, and I want to raise it 1000 more (according to our rules) I must say 1400. If I say "raise it 1000 more" the TDA rules restrict my total raise amount to 600, or a total of 1000...which is not what I intended to bet.

One other question. TDA #41 B. Players must wait for clear bet amounts before acting. Ex. Player A says "raise" (but no amount), and B quickly folds. B should wait to act until A's raise amount is clear.

Why?

Dave Miller

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Re: Rule 46 question
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2021, 07:25:25 PM »
If I say "raise it 1000 more" …
I’ve ruled, and taught my dealers, that saying ‘more’ IS an acceptable clarification for a total bet of 1,400 in this case.

But only if the word more is not preceded by a pause. Kinda like a verbal one-motion rule.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2021, 07:26:29 PM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Rule 46 question
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2021, 10:40:13 AM »
Dave,

 Yes...I agree with you but the TDA rules do not support or agree with us.

 How do you feel about my other question regarding #41 B?

Dave Miller

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Re: Rule 46 question
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2021, 07:22:28 PM »
Oh. Sorry for not seeing that part.

And sorry to say it, but I approve of that rule. After all, the players, including the one thatís gonna fold, has a right to know how aggressive the raiser was gonna be.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2021, 07:24:38 PM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Rule 46 question
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2021, 08:55:04 PM »
Okay..I have no idea why, but if you think it should be a rule, okay. All I know is when a player in front of me raises, and I have no intention of calling any amount, why do I have to wait for him to put his bet in? It makes no sense to me at all.

MathieuP75

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Re: Rule 46 question
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2021, 12:37:06 AM »
Because it would let the raiser decide the amount of the raise after you fold.
If I face 1 player, my raise amount might not be the same as if I face 2 (or more) !

Dave Miller

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Re: Rule 46 question
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2021, 03:07:18 AM »
Yeah, I was thinking about the raise calculation thing after I went to bed last night. Thanks Mathieu. 
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Rule 46 question
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2021, 07:54:31 AM »
Thanks, MathieuP75.

 Now that makes sense. Okay, I like it.

MathieuP75

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Re: Rule 46 question
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2021, 02:04:44 AM »

A bets 400
B raises 1000
A puts 1200 (1000, 2x100) without touching his/her 400.

Is it a call or a raise to 1600?
I read the rules once more today and I strongly believe it's a call because of the last sentence :

"Per Rule 45, a silent multi-chip bet is a raise if it hits the 50% threshold; otherwise it is a call."


On a side note, maybe the next version should remove any reference to "25" chips since it has disapeared with the BB Ante.

Nick C

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Re: Rule 46 question
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2021, 06:39:10 AM »
In these confusing situations, I would like the TDA to emphasize "making your intentions clear." How difficult is it to announce the amount?

As far as a player touching any chip that they have already placed into the pot (betting area, such as blinds) this must only be allowed when raising or completing a previous bet. I.e, blinds 500 and 1000...the action returns to the SB and he removes his 500 and replaces it with a 1000.

Players must learn that by not following these simple rules, the amount they bet may not be what they intended.

My dislike for many of the raise rules begins with MathieuP75's example above. A bets 400...B raises 1000...(making it 1000 or raising 1000 more is a big difference). If the total amount of the raise is 600 more, the total amount to call is 1000, of course. If
the intent was to raise 1000 more, the total intended amount would be 1400.

I understand the TDA ruling...the total amount is 1000. I don't like that rule. It is not supported by a dictionary's definition of raise and I'm certain that it causes confusion.

Back to MatheiuP75's example when Player B leaves the 400 in the pot, the TDA ruling of 50% would force Player A to complete the min-raise to 1600.  If the raise were 1000 more...then the 400 would not qualify under the 50% rule and would have to be retracted.

I see no reason why the TDA can not insist that whenever raising, the player MUST make their intentions clear.

« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 05:34:55 PM by Nick C »

Dave Miller

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Re: Rule 46 question
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2021, 03:39:38 PM »
Back to MatheiuP75's example when Player B leaves the 400 in the pot, the TDA ruling of 50% would force Player A to complete the min-raise to 1800. If the raise were 1000 more...then the 400 would not qualify under the 50% rule and would have to be retracted.
Check your math.
Hereís the action from the original post:
A bets 400
B raises 1000
A puts 1200 (1000, 2x100) without touching his/her 400.
I believe we agree that B raised TO 1000 (a raise OF 600).

As such, the next min-raise is 600 more, to 1600 - which is whatís sitting in front of A.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Dave Miller

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Re: Rule 46 question
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2021, 03:47:28 PM »
I see no reason why the TDA can not insist that whenever raising, the player MUST make their intentions clear.
I question your use of the term Ďinsistí. Note that thereís already a rule:
Quote from: Rule 42B, partial
It is the responsibility of players to make their intentions clear.
Asking a player to verbally clarify a bet is giving them a chance to change their intentions. Even asking a mumbler to clarify their statement is a potential opportunity to change their action.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 03:49:04 PM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Rule 46 question
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2021, 05:40:12 PM »
Dave...Thanks for the heads up. I corrected my error. No sense in confusing our readers any more than they already are. :D
1800 was incorrect.

I still don't like the TDA rule that makes a 1000 raise of a 400 bet the total amount 1000, instead of 1400.