Author Topic: Rule 46 query and breaking tables, hand for hand confusion.  (Read 4404 times)

W0lfster

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Rule 46 query and breaking tables, hand for hand confusion.
« on: August 23, 2020, 04:03:20 AM »
Hi there,

Just thought Iíd ask what the rulings were on these given situations. I have read the TDA rules thoroughly but still not clear on the following and was wondering if you could please help me:

1. Rule 46 I sort of understand but the example shown confuses me... namely ĎIf prior chips donít cover the call AND are left alone. Ex: THE 25-50, the BB posts two 25ís, button raises to 600 total (550 more to BB). 1: Adding an overchip is a call (drop a 1k chip onto the two 25ís).í

Why is this a call? The smallest denomination chip of 25 can be removed and leave at least the call amount and removed leaves 1025 which is more than 50% of 600 raised.


2. Breaking/balancing tables - what is the ruling in this? Is it always the players about to be BB move to another table? It says the worst position, what is the worst position? Are tables always balanced if an opportunity to balance comes up in an MTT or is it only done during certain intervals?


3. Random drawing for seats - what is the ruling here when it comes to highest card by suit is dealt first? I thought it was Ace was dealer and every other card that was numbered was their corresponding seat. What is the suit order?


4. A situation that come up at home. Dealer burns 2 cards instead of 1 and deals the flop. What is the ruling here?


5. In hand for hand, I read somewhere that the hand plays for 2 minutes. Please explain this to me as I canít understand this.




Thank you 🙂
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 04:04:26 AM by W0lfster »

BillM16

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Re: Rule 46 query and breaking tables, hand for hand confusion.
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2020, 02:55:00 PM »
1. Rule 46 I sort of understand but the example shown confuses me... namely ‘If prior chips don’t cover the call AND are left alone. Ex: THE 25-50, the BB posts two 25’s, button raises to 600 total (550 more to BB). 1: Adding an overchip is a call (drop a 1k chip onto the two 25’s).’

Why is this a call? The smallest denomination chip of 25 can be removed and leave at least the call amount and removed leaves 1025 which is more than 50% of 600 raised.

The player did not verbalize their action prior to adding chips to their prior-bet chips.  This violates Rule #46-A and causes confusion. 

The player is facing a raise but they did not pull back prior bet chips so Rule #46-B does not apply. 

The player's prior bet chips were left alone and they do not cover the raise amount of 550.  So, Rule #46-C applies.  Your question recognizes one possible interpretation of the players intent, but we truly don't know their intent as they violated #46-A.  The TDA decided that when considering ONLY a single NEW chip, an oversized chip is always a call.  The reasoning is consistent with Rule #44 Oversized Chip Betting. (Note, #44 does not address prior bet chips).
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 02:58:29 PM by BillM16 »

BillM16

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Re: Rule 46 query and breaking tables, hand for hand confusion.
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2020, 03:11:39 PM »
2. ... Is it always the players about to be BB move to another table? It says the worst position, what is the worst position? ...

Rule #11 Balancing Tables and Halting Play

A: To balance in flop & mixed-games, the player to be big blind next moves to the worst position, including single big blind if available, even if that means the seat is big blind twice. Worst position is never the small blind. In stud-only, players move by position (last seat open at the short table is the seat filled).


So, the answer to your first question above is yes: the player to be BB next moves to the worst position.  In general, the worst position is where the BB will occur soonest.





BillM16

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Re: Rule 46 query and breaking tables, hand for hand confusion.
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2020, 03:19:27 PM »
3. Random drawing for seats - what is the ruling here when it comes to highest card by suit is dealt first? I thought it was Ace was dealer and every other card that was numbered was their corresponding seat. What is the suit order?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_card_by_suit

W0lfster

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Re: Rule 46 query and breaking tables, hand for hand confusion.
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2020, 03:23:14 PM »
Hi Bill,

Thank you for your reply, it makes more sense now. I think the key here is NEW chips added. I read that rule 46 also applies to prior chips partly pulled back or if prior chips cover the call. Where would partly pull back apply? And could you please give some examples?

Thanks 🙂

BillM16

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Re: Rule 46 query and breaking tables, hand for hand confusion.
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2020, 03:27:17 PM »
4. A situation that come up at home. Dealer burns 2 cards instead of 1 and deals the flop. What is the ruling here?


5. In hand for hand, I read somewhere that the hand plays for 2 minutes. Please explain this to me as I canít understand this.

#4 - Your house rules always supersede TDA Rules.  In my house, we treat the extra burn as the next burn card and pour another shot for the dealer.

#5 - When the remaining players in the tournament are nearing the money, hand-for-hand will commence.  Remaining tables deal and complete hands in sync - without regard to time limits.  In this way, one table cannot slowdown in an attempt to make it into the $$$.

W0lfster

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Re: Rule 46 query and breaking tables, hand for hand confusion.
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2020, 03:57:11 PM »
2. ... Is it always the players about to be BB move to another table? It says the worst position, what is the worst position? ...

Rule #11 Balancing Tables and Halting Play

A: To balance in flop & mixed-games, the player to be big blind next moves to the worst position, including single big blind if available, even if that means the seat is big blind twice. Worst position is never the small blind. In stud-only, players move by position (last seat open at the short table is the seat filled).


So, the answer to your first question above is yes: the player to be BB next moves to the worst position.  In general, the worst position is where the BB will occur soonest.


Thanks again for your reply and yes I understand now about worst position. However, do TDía ensure players are balanced throughout the tournament? Or only on certain intervals towards the money?


W0lfster

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Re: Rule 46 query and breaking tables, hand for hand confusion.
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2020, 04:05:14 PM »

#5 - When the remaining players in the tournament are nearing the money, hand-for-hand will commence.  Remaining tables deal and complete hands in sync - without regard to time limits.  In this way, one table cannot slowdown in an attempt to make it into the $$$.


Ok that makes more sense but I donít get this 2 minute rule when it doesnít seem to apply here.

BillM16

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Re: Rule 46 query and breaking tables, hand for hand confusion.
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2020, 04:10:46 PM »

#5 - When the remaining players in the tournament are nearing the money, hand-for-hand will commence.  Remaining tables deal and complete hands in sync - without regard to time limits.  In this way, one table cannot slowdown in an attempt to make it into the $$$.


Ok that makes more sense but I don’t get this 2 minute rule when it doesn’t seem to apply here.

The H4H clock adjusts equally the time on the duration to the next blind level.  So, the TD might say that each H4H will subtract 2 minutes from the time remaining until the next level.  Even if the actual hand takes 10 minutes, the TD will adjust the clock by 2 minutes.

(p.s.  Check out the FREE iOS apps below.)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2020, 04:11:53 PM by BillM16 »

W0lfster

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Re: Rule 46 query and breaking tables, hand for hand confusion.
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2020, 12:10:16 AM »

#5 - When the remaining players in the tournament are nearing the money, hand-for-hand will commence.  Remaining tables deal and complete hands in sync - without regard to time limits.  In this way, one table cannot slowdown in an attempt to make it into the $$$.


Ok that makes more sense but I donít get this 2 minute rule when it doesnít seem to apply here.

The H4H clock adjusts equally the time on the duration to the next blind level.  So, the TD might say that each H4H will subtract 2 minutes from the time remaining until the next level.  Even if the actual hand takes 10 minutes, the TD will adjust the clock by 2 minutes.

(p.s.  Check out the FREE iOS apps below.)



Hi Bill, thanks for your reply. Can you please give me an example of how this works? Sorry, with my processing Iím struggling to understand.

BillM16

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Re: Rule 46 query and breaking tables, hand for hand confusion.
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2020, 04:45:01 AM »

#5 - When the remaining players in the tournament are nearing the money, hand-for-hand will commence.  Remaining tables deal and complete hands in sync - without regard to time limits.  In this way, one table cannot slowdown in an attempt to make it into the $$$.


Ok that makes more sense but I don’t get this 2 minute rule when it doesn’t seem to apply here.

The H4H clock adjusts equally the time on the duration to the next blind level.  So, the TD might say that each H4H will subtract 2 minutes from the time remaining until the next level.  Even if the actual hand takes 10 minutes, the TD will adjust the clock by 2 minutes.

(p.s.  Check out the FREE iOS apps below.)



Hi Bill, thanks for your reply. Can you please give me an example of how this works? Sorry, with my processing I’m struggling to understand.

For example: The tournament had over 1500 player entries.  After 14 hours of play the blinds have climbed to 15,000 and 30,000 and will continue to climb rapidly after each hour.  There are now 152 players remaining and only 150 will make it into the money.  The TD stops play and announces that H4H will now begin until 2 players are eliminated.  The tournament clock says in 21 minutes the next level will be 20,000 and 40,000.  The TD says "I will subtract 3 minutes from the tournament clock for each H4H."  All dealers pitch cards for the next hand as the tournament resumes. It takes 5 minutes before all of the tables report that their first hand has completed.  Only one player was eliminated so another H4H is needed.  The TD subtracts 3 minutes from the clock and tells the dealers to proceed with the next hand.  Six minutes later the hand is complete and nobody was eliminated.  The TD subtracts another 3 minutes and the next hand is dealt.  This process continues until the 151st player busts out and the remaining 150 reach the money.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 04:46:33 AM by BillM16 »

Dave Miller

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Re: Rule 46 query and breaking tables, hand for hand confusion.
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2020, 05:00:32 AM »
#4 - Your house rules always supersede TDA Rules.  In my house, we treat the extra burn as the next burn card and pour another shot for the dealer.
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W0lfster

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Re: Rule 46 query and breaking tables, hand for hand confusion.
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2020, 10:33:28 AM »
Thanks Bill,

Makes more sense now 👍🏽