Author Topic: Card off the table  (Read 7697 times)

bigstu

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Card off the table
« on: June 03, 2010, 10:56:52 AM »
Playing @ Dania the other night all in after the turn all in with a set of K's vrs. a set of Queens.  There were also 3 hts on the board so I was a little afraid of the flush (I had the K of hts).

Anyway I get exited after I see the queens throw my kings into the ceter of the table the K of hts flips over and slides off the table.

Since no one saw the card in play the TD rules the card is dead...and since it's the K of heart I am drawing dead.

I can see me getting a penalty of warning but cannot find anywhere in the TDA or Roberts that says that the card is dead!

MikeB

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Re: Card off the table
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2010, 11:48:26 AM »
Playing @ Dania the other night all in after the turn all in with a set of K's vrs. a set of Queens.  There were also 3 hts on the board so I was a little afraid of the flush (I had the K of hts).

Anyway I get exited after I see the queens throw my kings into the ceter of the table the K of hts flips over and slides off the table. Since no one saw the card in play the TD rules the card is dead...and since it's the K of heart I am drawing dead. I can see me getting a penalty of warning but cannot find anywhere in the TDA or Roberts that says that the card is dead!
Hi Stu. A card falling out of your hand onto the floor at showdown is not an automatic condition of a dead hand. That said, you acknowledge that you hastily threw your cards onto the table... throwing cards around is the single-biggest cause of problems at the poker table. When this happens you effectively are "at the mercy" of whatever ruling you get. Personally I feel that as long as there is ZERO reason to believe that the card isn't your card, then I have to believe it is your card. As long as people could visiually follow that card bouncing on the table and onto the floor, which I presume they could, and the deck can be counted to 52 cards I wouldn't have a problem awarding you the pot here. Definitely you'd get my card-tossing lecture. But another TD might rule more strenuously... and/or they may have their own reasons for questioning whether that truly is your card... you're really at "the mercy of the court" in these situations.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 11:54:32 AM by MikeB »

Stuart Murray

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Re: Card off the table
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2010, 03:13:57 PM »
I'd agree fully will Mike's statements, it's a mercy ruling, one which I would probably rule in your favour however I would give you a warning/penalty for the card going off anyway.

Mike's statement about counting the deck and line of sight are all excellent examples of ratifying your starting hand and I think I would have to have serious concerns that the card was not yours to rule it dead.

I do however fully endorse the decision to kill your Kh, as it could easily be an angle shoot/collusion/cheating by an aggrieved player who is unhappy due to the other player having the set of queens.

The important thing for TD's is to consider the best interests of the game, and if their is any doubt that it is your card the best interest in this case is indeed to kill the card.

Stuart

bigstu

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Re: Card off the table
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2010, 04:12:12 PM »
What angle shooting.... I had the winning hand.... a set of kings!  While I agree on a penalty there can be no doubt as to what card went off the table!

Nick C

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Re: Card off the table
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2010, 08:05:32 PM »
How in the hell can they kill your hand? Wow! Hold on to your cards until you get the pot, or you see a hand that has you beat. Forget the theatrics of Celebrity Poker on TV, In my opinion that's what's causing all the problems.

Nick C

Stuart Murray

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Re: Card off the table
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2010, 01:33:00 AM »
bigstu,

I was not inferring your case to be an angle shot, but that a TD must consider the possibility that it is when called, it is obvious that by you taking the time to post on here you have learned a costly lesson.

It is so true what Nick says about celebrity poker on tv causing so many problems nowadays.

Best Regards
Stuart

Martin L. Waller

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Re: Card off the table
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2010, 01:08:38 PM »
Bigstu,

Behave yourself.

Some card rooms even have rules that if a player tosses his cards and it hits a community card their hand is dead, even when it is identifiable.

First you should know the “house “rules.

This ruling could fall under RRoP 2.2-15 “Players must keep their cards in full view. This means above table level and not past the edge of the table.”  It’s all in the interpretation.

If you were in my room the hand wouldn’t be dead but you would get a speech and warning. 

Good game to you,
Martin