Author Topic: incorrect call of raise and incorrect fold of next player  (Read 560 times)

Buddymax

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incorrect call of raise and incorrect fold of next player
« on: February 23, 2020, 02:32:33 PM »
I had a situation arise at one of my home tournaments last week and did not know how to handle it.  I will tell you what happened and I am asking for any proper procedures to deal with this.  I am pretty sure wrongly let it go a but in the moment some of the players were making decisions without my input.

Game was Texas Holdem No Limit

Blinds 400/800.  Cards were dealt but no flop.  Player C, under the gun, raised to 1600 but only put out 1500 chips.   All players folded to the small blind. Small blind said call but did not hear the raise and only put out 800 chips.  Big blind quickly folded and cards were mucked but before the small blind had put in his chips for the "call".

Small blind was told of the raise and at the same time Player C was advised that the raise needed to be 1600.  She immediately put out the extra 100 chips. 

Small Blind said he would have folded to the raise and did fold.  Big blind was upset that he said call incorrectly and wanted her big blind back as she folded to his incorrect “call of the raise” as mucked cards could not be retrieved. She said if he had not said “call” she would have called the raise, but as cards were mucked the hand was over.

Players were asking advice, but small blind took back his blind, big blind lost her blind and Player C won the hand and the big blind chips, as all folded.  This was the player’s determination but big blind did not agree.  The other two players agreed, and no further action was taken. The game continued.

After the fact, I told them that the small blind and big blind should lose their blinds to the raise as one called incorrectly and then folded and one folded to the call too quickly before the correct call action was completed and her cards could not be definitively identified or retrieved from the muck. 

Is this the correct action for the play?

None of the players in the hand agreed with my reasoning so it was left as is and play continued.

Is my reasoning correct?  If not any advice would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks

Buddymax

BillM16

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Re: incorrect call of raise and incorrect fold of next player
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2020, 05:29:40 PM »
Yes, UTG raised.  SB did commit to a call but had not realized UTG had raised.  So, SB might be given the option to forfeit the 800 call of the BB, and fold rather than completing the call of 1600.  The BB acted too early as the SB action was incomplete.  The BB cannot retrieve a mucked hand ... too bad, so sad.  UTG wins.

Note, Rule #51-B. The under call made by the SB was 1) not heads up and 2) not facing the opening bet.  The UTG had raised the BB opener.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 05:36:24 PM by BillM16 »

MikeB

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Re: incorrect call of raise and incorrect fold of next player
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2020, 10:49:34 PM »
Rule 51-C was adopted in 2017 and gives a general approach to compounded errors in sequence: you correct the first player to error and deal with the subsequent errors using TDs discretion under Rule 1. Here the first meaningful error is the SB undercall. 

BTW the BB statement doesn't make sense, that she folded because the SB appeared to call? Or she's saying she would have called if the SB folded? She doesn't have any case IMO, her action is a binding fold.   

Motobaka72

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Re: incorrect call of raise and incorrect fold of next player
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2020, 01:25:31 PM »
Why is the UTG action not considered the oppening bet?

BillM16

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Re: incorrect call of raise and incorrect fold of next player
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2020, 02:18:05 PM »
Why is the UTG action not considered the oppening bet?

In blind games, the BB is the pre-flop opener.  See TDA Rule #51-B.

Motobaka72

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Re: incorrect call of raise and incorrect fold of next player
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2020, 02:32:05 PM »
Why is the UTG action not considered the oppening bet?

In blind games, the BB is the pre-flop opener.  See TDA Rule #51-B.

Thanks!

Dave Miller

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Re: incorrect call of raise and incorrect fold of next player
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2020, 06:19:02 PM »
Sorry I missed this the first time around.

Am I reading it right? The SB ended up paying nothing??? If it was a friendly game and people wanted to be generous, then he should pay 400. Otherwise forfeit 800 or pay 1600 and play it out.
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