Author Topic: NLHE Tournament- PLayer wins pot with 3 cards.  (Read 138 times)

Shehu-J

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NLHE Tournament- PLayer wins pot with 3 cards.
« on: May 06, 2019, 04:50:52 PM »
Hello! I'd like some opinions on something very strange happened during a tournament i was running.
So here we go. 6handed table UTG opens everyone folds to the BB who defends. Flop A98 ( suits doesnt matter ).
Check,Cbet -call . Turn 6 ,check ,bet and the bb folds. The  UTG then said ,i had it look ,and shows 10 7 and behind the 10 was another 10. So long story short ,he won the pot with 3 hole cards.  Obviously he didnt do it on purpose cuz he  showed his hand.
So they call the floor , what would you do ?

Thanks in advance.

Boris Mauboussin

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Re: NLHE Tournament- PLayer wins pot with 3 cards.
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2019, 03:05:14 AM »
Hello Shehu-J,

If a player does not have the correct amount of cards once the deal is over and some actions occurs (Substantial Actions), his hand is dead.
Since Substantial Actions are at max 3 consecutives actions, the hand should be killed at the time it is discovered. Previous bets can not be refunded. I would refund the turn bet since it has not been called and award the pot to the BB.

Dave Miller

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Re: NLHE Tournament- PLayer wins pot with 3 cards.
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2019, 09:55:01 AM »
>> Obviously he didnt do it on purpose ...

Nothing is obvious. Thatís why there are rules.

As Boris said: Return that last bet and award the rest of the pot to the BB.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: NLHE Tournament- PLayer wins pot with 3 cards.
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2019, 01:50:29 PM »
How about returning all bets and re-deal?

I know Roberts Rules is not for tournaments but we often turn to them when these weird situations occur.

MISDEAL
 An incorrect number of cards has been dealt to a player, except the top card may be dealt if it goes to the player in the proper sequence.

Boris Mauboussin

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Re: NLHE Tournament- PLayer wins pot with 3 cards.
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2019, 03:47:57 PM »
How about returning all bets and re-deal?

I know Roberts Rules is not for tournaments but we often turn to them when these weird situations occur.

MISDEAL
 An incorrect number of cards has been dealt to a player, except the top card may be dealt if it goes to the player in the proper sequence.


It is part of a discussion from several weeks about opening a window for players to force a misdeal.

My example was about someone not happy with his cards while action pending. Decide to hide/throw a card outside the table and declare he is missing a card. Yes, this is actually cheating and subject to many differents penalties including jail in some places, BUT the time it could take to discover the rabbit could be longer than "OK Misdeal".

If the table does not have a shuffling machine (and the dealer does not count the deck after this), you can't realize the real situation.
If the table does have a shuffling machine, you will discover the real situation once the redeal is started, since your 51 cards deck is in the shuffling machine and it will take between 25 seconds and 1 minute to complete the machine shuffle (and obviously twice this time because 99% of the dealers will just relaunch the shuffling machine thinking about a false positive from the machine, like it could happen something like 10 times in a day)

Definitely not re-dealing =)

BillM16

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Re: NLHE Tournament- PLayer wins pot with 3 cards.
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2019, 05:37:35 AM »
I know Roberts Rules is not for tournaments but we often turn to them when these weird situations occur.

Roberts Rules of Poker applies to both cash and tournament play and distinguishes differences.  It also includes Section 15 - TOURNAMENTS.. Quoting from the introduction: "The author has strongly supported uniform poker rules, and applauds the work done in this direction by the Tournament Directorís Association (TDA). Nearly all the rules herein are compatible with the TDA rules, although there are some slight differences in wording."

Nick C

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Re: NLHE Tournament- PLayer wins pot with 3 cards.
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2019, 06:05:18 AM »
Nice to hear your replies, Boris and Bill. Always enjoy the back and forth.

Wow...hiding and throwing cards off the table? Sounds like your players need background checks before being seated. :D

 Not an expert on auto shufflers but my guess, if one of your players was that devious they would find a way to slip in a couple of extra aces and ditch a deuce or two.

 I don't believe your shuffler can detect two aces of spades...can it? 52 cards are no guarantee.

 Years ago, when working on the floor, I would often refer to Chuck Ferry's book...RULES OF POKER. "When strict enforcement of a rule will cause an obviously unfair result, the floorperson shall have the unrestricted right to waive any rule and make the decision.



 I had an incident that is worth mentioning, primarily because it happened to me and I still remember it 35 years later. I was playing in a low limit stud game at the Sams Town Casino in Las Vegas. I was holding a high flush on sixth street. While pitching the river card, the dealer pitched me two cards that were stuck together. My hand was dead. So, instead of winning the pot I got my money back.
Still pisses me off! ::)

Boris Mauboussin

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Re: NLHE Tournament- PLayer wins pot with 3 cards.
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2019, 04:31:02 AM »
Nice to hear your replies, Boris and Bill. Always enjoy the back and forth.

Wow...hiding and throwing cards off the table? Sounds like your players need background checks before being seated. :D

 Not an expert on auto shufflers but my guess, if one of your players was that devious they would find a way to slip in a couple of extra aces and ditch a deuce or two.

 I don't believe your shuffler can detect two aces of spades...can it? 52 cards are no guarantee.

Anything can happen in gambling, a cheater is not always a serial cheater. In some countries in Europe, cheating is not subject of fine nor jail time. Most of the time, you just get a temporary ban from the casino/club. At worst, you get a lifetime time ban on gambling places in the country.

About the shuffling machines, new ones can sort the deck =)

Nick C

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Re: NLHE Tournament- PLayer wins pot with 3 cards.
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2019, 07:04:50 AM »
Boris...nice to get your response. 1800+ members and your the only one on in a week!