Author Topic: Card Color Exposed During Deal  (Read 10605 times)

GreggPath

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Card Color Exposed During Deal
« on: March 22, 2019, 02:52:41 PM »
During deal, one player sees the color of another player's card but not the exact suit or rank. Do you follow the regular exposed card rule? The way I look at it, people still gain information. Say there are three clubs on the board at the river. If you know someone has at least one red card, he's at a huge disadvantage. How would most casinos rule?

BillM16

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Re: Card Color Exposed During Deal
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2019, 06:30:14 AM »
Hey GreggPath,

I agree with you.

Nick C

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Re: Card Color Exposed During Deal
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2019, 07:23:54 PM »
Gregg...to be honest ...don't even go there. Half of the time the player can't be certain of what the card was, let alone the color. there are too many situations when the 'exposed" or "flashed" card is misread, you can not go by the word of the players. You just can not. The dealers need to control the action with accuracy.

GreggPath

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Re: Card Color Exposed During Deal
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2019, 12:53:03 PM »
Gregg...to be honest ...don't even go there. Half of the time the player can't be certain of what the card was, let alone the color. there are too many situations when the 'exposed" or "flashed" card is misread, you can not go by the word of the players. You just can not. The dealers need to control the action with accuracy.

So what would you do if a player said they saw the color of another player's card during the deal?

Nick C

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Re: Card Color Exposed During Deal
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2019, 03:29:49 PM »
Nothing...tell the dealer to be careful.

BillM16

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Re: Card Color Exposed During Deal
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2019, 05:18:35 AM »
Gregg,

Whenever a player says a card was flashed, it is to be treated as an exposed card.  Good dealers do not disregard the observations of players who are being honest and are attempting to protect the integrity of the game.  All too often, bad dealers ignore a flashed card with a lame excuse like "the player could not be certain of the exact card" so as to cover up their own error.

Please see Robert's Rules of Poker v11:

3 - General Poker Rules
12.   Procedure for an exposed card varies with the poker form, and is given in the section for each game. A card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card. A card that is flashed by a player will play. To obtain a ruling on whether a card was exposed and should be replaced, a player should announce that the card was flashed or exposed before looking at it. A downcard dealt off the table is an exposed card.
13.   If a card is exposed due to dealer error, a player does not have an option to take or reject the card. The situation will be governed by the rules for the particular game being played.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 05:30:05 AM by BillM16 »

GreggPath

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Re: Card Color Exposed During Deal
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2019, 03:44:01 PM »
Nothing...tell the dealer to be careful.

So you allow the player who's card color was seen to play at a disadvantage?

GreggPath

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Re: Card Color Exposed During Deal
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2019, 03:45:06 PM »
Gregg,

Whenever a player says a card was flashed, it is to be treated as an exposed card.  Good dealers do not disregard the observations of players who are being honest and are attempting to protect the integrity of the game.  All too often, bad dealers ignore a flashed card with a lame excuse like "the player could not be certain of the exact card" so as to cover up their own error.

Please see Robert's Rules of Poker v11:

3 - General Poker Rules
12.   Procedure for an exposed card varies with the poker form, and is given in the section for each game. A card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card. A card that is flashed by a player will play. To obtain a ruling on whether a card was exposed and should be replaced, a player should announce that the card was flashed or exposed before looking at it. A downcard dealt off the table is an exposed card.
13.   If a card is exposed due to dealer error, a player does not have an option to take or reject the card. The situation will be governed by the rules for the particular game being played.


Thank you. That's basically what I assumed but since it doesn't get into those types of specifics in the TOC rulebook, I wanted to double check.

Nick C

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Re: Card Color Exposed During Deal
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2019, 07:07:09 AM »
What do you do when the player says he believes he saw the "color" of a card being dealt and you discover he or she was wrong? Sorry, unless the card was seen by multiple players, or identifiable with certainty, you can not expose the card.

 Consider a stud game as an example; a player has three or possibly even 4 hearts on board. The dealer begins pitching the river cards to all remaining players, and someone says, "hey dealer, you just flashed Johnny's river card. I saw it, it's a red card!" What do you do? Turn it over...only to discover it's a spade? Or a diamond, or whatever.

 I don't agree with exposing the card. What's to stop players from announcing a possible flashed card, only to take advantage of any situation that could: suspend further betting, or just getting a look at a players card?

BillM16

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Re: Card Color Exposed During Deal
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2019, 06:57:17 PM »
What do you do when the player says he believes he saw the "color" of a card being dealt and you discover he or she was wrong? Sorry, unless the card was seen by multiple players, or identifiable with certainty, you can not expose the card.

 Consider a stud game as an example; a player has three or possibly even 4 hearts on board. The dealer begins pitching the river cards to all remaining players, and someone says, "hey dealer, you just flashed Johnny's river card. I saw it, it's a red card!" What do you do? Turn it over...only to discover it's a spade? Or a diamond, or whatever.

 I don't agree with exposing the card. What's to stop players from announcing a possible flashed card, only to take advantage of any situation that could: suspend further betting, or just getting a look at a players card?

RRoP Stud Rules
17. If the dealer turns the last card faceup to any player, the hand now high on the board using
all the upcards will start the action. The following rules apply to the dealing of cards:
(a) If there are more than two players, all remaining players receive their last card facedown.
A player whose last card is faceup has the option of declaring all-in before betting action
starts, meaning that the player does not put any more chips into the pot and subsequent
betting by the other active players will be on the side.
(b) If there are only two players remaining and the first player's final downcard is dealt
faceup, the second player's final downcard will also be dealt faceup, and the betting
proceeds as normal. In the event the first player's final card is dealt facedown and the
opponent's final card is dealt faceup, the player with the faceup final card has the option
of declaring all-in (before betting action starts).


Nick C

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Re: Card Color Exposed During Deal
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2019, 07:36:21 PM »
Bill,

 I'm familiar with the rule you posted. However, it has nothing to do with a questionably flashed card. The rule pertains to the dealer burning and turning the river card up instead of down...or accidentally flipping a down card over during a deal.


BillM16

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Re: Card Color Exposed During Deal
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2019, 08:51:38 PM »
An exposed card.

If you are unwilling to recognize the rule that a flashed card is to be treated as an exposed card then you will never accept that you are wrong.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2019, 09:06:03 PM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: Card Color Exposed During Deal
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2019, 12:06:50 AM »
Bill

 How can you say I am wrong? Greggs original question asked if you would follow the flashed card rule when a single player claims to have seen the color of an opponents card during a deal? I gave my answer and I explained why.

 If you look at the original question, the game being played was a flop game. therefore the supposedly flashed card occurred during the original deal prior to any board cards being played. Are you really prepared to change a players "proper" card because someone might have seen it's color but has no idea of the suit or rank of the card?

 I switched my answer to a stud game because I felt I could make a better example for the question. There are other posts in the archives on this. If I have the time I'll see what I can find.

 Bill...you voiced your opinion with a written rule, but you failed to tell us how you would handle the situation. "Hey dealer, I think I saw the color of the card you just dealt to the 5 seat!" What do you do? Check the card? Stop the deal? If it turns out to be black instead of the red card he thought he saw, what then? Sorry...you better think this one out a little better.

Nick C

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BillM16

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Re: Card Color Exposed During Deal
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2019, 06:30:52 AM »
Bill...you voiced your opinion with a written rule, but you failed to tell us how you would handle the situation. ... Sorry...you better think this one out a little better.

Nick ... in my opinion, the written rule should be followed.  Bob Ciaffone, the author of RRoP, several books, and a respected authority on poker rules, has thought this one out better.  I agree with him.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 06:34:40 AM by BillM16 »