Sick hand at '09 EPT Barcelona

[D.C.]

Hi guys.

I don't know if this case has already been discussed in the old forum, but here it is.
I believe by this time most of you have already seen and talked about this hand between Tobias Reinkemeier and Roland De Wolfe during this year's EPT Barcelona.
For those who have been in another planet the last few months, here's the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr2agX80ZyE

Even if you don't speak german (or whatever language that is being spoken in the video) it's easy to capture the action and understand the situation.

The TD there ruled Roland's hand dead and awarded the pot to Tobias.


The fact that Roland tried to place his cards into the muck pile kills his hand?
The fact that the dealer prevented Roland's attempt should matter determining whether the hand was killed?
The fact that the bet was actually called should still grant Roland's right to muck and "auto-kill" his hand?

How would you rule?

Regards,
D.C.
Brazilian Series of Poker

[Georg]

This is the famous "De Wolfe case" which was discussed in many different forums.
My opinion:
- Roland folded by touching the muck with his hand intentionally. So I agree with the TD (Thomas Kremser).

BUT:
- I don't know why the dealer turns his cards up. But that should not make them live.
- Can the other player request to see Roland's hand even when mucked?
- If the other player requests to see his hand then it should be live and Roland should have won.

Georg

[pokerfish]

IMO the hand is dead and the dealer cannot make it live by turning it up and preventing him from mucking. One player to a hand.... if the other player in the hand asks to see it, it IS live. If another player at the table asks, it is first killed by the dealer if needed. That said, even if the dealer (or in this case the player) doesn't actually kill the hand, it is dead before it is turned up.
Jan Fisher
cardplayercruises.com

[Georg]

Under what circumstances can the other player ask to see the hand?
Under what circumstances can any other player ask to see the hand?

I think no other player should be allowed to request to see rolands hand if he wants to muck it. If somebody suspects something is not right, then they should call the TD an he will take a look. This only my opinion I am unsure what the rules say.

Georg

[D.C.]

Under what circumstances can the other player ask to see the hand?
Under what circumstances can any other player ask to see the hand?

I think no other player should be allowed to request to see rolands hand if he wants to muck it. If somebody suspects something is not right, then they should call the TD an he will take a look. This only my opinion I am unsure what the rules say.

Georg

Georg,

In my understanding of the situation, technicaly, since all bets were called and action was done, the hand went to showdown. Again, technicaly, all hands would be shown to see who is the player with the best 5card combination. With that said, all hands *could* bee seen by all players at the table.

Now, it is a completelly different question whether or not it is good conduct, proper etiquette, etc.

I believe that players should be allowed to see hands that went to showdown, but I also like to discourage abuse of this privilege.

Poker has grown to an international level and all the proper player conduct at the tables has always come from the evolution of what gentlemen agreed to be ok to do at the tables, mainly in USA. But, it is no secret, that today most of people that come to meet poker for the first time will do it through online poker. And when playing online you can always see all mucked hands that went to showdown by clicking on the hand history.
When you play online the rules are fixed and clear. That's what new players expect to see live too, but in many cases different TDs will have different opinions regard the "right to muck".
I've got no problem with a player always being allowed to muck, as long as there's solid and well based arguments to support the decision, so it won't be left to how the particular TD feels about the issue.

Good weekend to all (mine started great with an AC/DC concert yesterday  )

D.C.