Author Topic: Dealing Card " flashed "  (Read 16249 times)

Terence Bertault

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 65
Dealing Card " flashed "
« on: August 12, 2016, 06:26:48 PM »
Hi guys,

Remind me the rule for a card " flashed " by a dealer on the first or second turn to a player at seat 3 please ?

I obviously know the rule but one of my player wants to read it ... And strangely It s not in the 2015 rules ... it was in 2013 rules ...

Friendly regards.

Terence

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3358
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Dealing Card " flashed "
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2016, 06:41:18 AM »
Hi Terence

 Not quite sure I'm going to address your question but I'll give it a try.

 The first or second card (top of deck) dealt that is flashed or exposed would constitute a misdeal. I believe your question pertains to the third card dealt, (and beyond).

 A flashed card to the third player, (their first or second down card) will be replaced at the end of the initial round of dealing by the card that would have been the first burn card, if no error had occurred.

 The only problems that I've experienced with this rule is when a card "flutters" or it is questionable if the card were actually identifiable by any player.  If this is not the rule you were looking for, let me know and I'll give it another shot! :)

 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 11:31:35 AM by Nick C »

Terence Bertault

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 65
Re: Dealing Card " flashed "
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2016, 08:08:58 AM »
Hi Nick,

Thanks for you answer my friend.

That just what I want to read.
For me here flashed = exposed and you understand it well.

For me :
- If the dealer flash it during the deal, we change the player card. The card becomes the flop burned card.
- If a player flash it by taking it, he has to keep it ... open and exposed.

I don't understand the meaning of your only problem you ve experienced ... " flutters " ??
Maybe I can give you my opinion and discuss about it ? But I ve got to understand first ! ahah

By the way, thanks for your time.

:)

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3358
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Dealing Card " flashed "
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2016, 12:13:42 PM »
Terrance,

 Happy I could help. I will give you the meaning of "flutter" from The American Heritage Dictionary flutter:1) to wave or flap rapidly in an irregular manner....

 It will be easier to understand what I was referring to once you understand the meaning. There were many times when a player would say that they saw an opponents card. What do you do? I was never in favor of exposing the  card because most of the time the card was not identified correctly. "Hey, dealer, I just saw Adam's card" it was the 6 of hearts." You are so convinced, you turn it over only to discover it was the 9 of spades! So, unless the card was clearly exposed, I would just continue dealing...and besides, keep your eyes on your own hand.

 Similar situations require other actions. When a second card is exposed on the initial deal, it calls for a "do-over" or redeal. This is more common in draw games or even flop games that require dealing more down cards than hold'em (i.e. Omaha). More cards dealt, the higher the probability that something will go wrong.

 Every once in a while the dealers need to be warned about keeping the cards low to the table to avoid any exposure. Sometimes they don't realize that they are getting a little "sloppy" or careless while dealing. Remember, a misdeal should be the last resort in order to maintain the flow of the game.

GreggPath

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: Dealing Card " flashed "
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2016, 01:49:42 PM »
When there is any question whatsoever as to whether a player saw a fluttering card, I always flip it. Sometimes a player will look  at it before flipping it and say "No, it wasn't the 6 of clubs (or whatever), I can keep it." They can't. Even if it wasn't that card, everyone at the table now knows that that player does not have that card. A player could even lie and say that wasn't the card even if it was (if they show it at showdown, they could just say the card was the second one dealt to them, as unlikely that would be. Or they could be right about the value (or suit) but wrong about the other half. So, to avoid all question, if a player says he saw it, or I believe it could have been seen, the card is considered as exposed. I've never run across someone lying about seeing it. I don't see any reason to actually.

Dave Miller

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
  • Lead dealer / rules guru for World Free Poker
    • Dave MIller Gaming
Re: Dealing Card " flashed "
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2016, 07:43:43 PM »
Hi guys
... strangely It s not in the 2015 rules ...
Check again.

Rule 34, Misdeals:
Quote
6) In flop games, if either of the first 2 cards dealt off the deck or any other 2 downcards are exposed by dealer error.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3358
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Dealing Card " flashed "
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2016, 08:12:40 PM »
Gregg,

 I'm not insinuating the player that thought he saw the card had any malicious intent. I'm just saying that the majority of the time, they are mistaken, and I don't agree with you at all on this one. You can't turn cards over and take "proper cards" away from the rightful owner based on the word of one inebriated player. Players at the table should agree whether a card was exposed or flashed to the point it was seen. Any dealer that makes these mistakes too often should sit in the corner and pitch a thousand cards without flashing a single card before he returns to the table. ;D I'm kidding, of course.

 How many players volunteer that information anyway? If you don't believe me, try it yourself. It's very difficult to identify a card that is flying across the table, unless it is clearly exposed.

 While I was writing Dave Miller replied. However, I don't believe that the original question was about a misdeal.

 It is not my intent to argue or debate every topic that pops up on this forum. I'd really like to think that my input will help others resolve some problem or issue they are having. I've sat here for about two weeks without posting anything, before I answered Mr Bertault's question. My advice to him, and others, is to use common sense and enforce a solid rule about flashed cards. In my opinion, always flipping the card in question over is not the answer.

 GreggPath, If you'd like to continue this discussion, you can always send me a personal message. Thanks for joining in, and I'm sure there are others that might feel the way you do.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 08:04:32 AM by Nick C »

Terence Bertault

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 65
Re: Dealing Card " flashed "
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2016, 09:35:30 PM »
Hi guys
... strangely It s not in the 2015 rules ...
Check again.

Rule 34, Misdeals:
Quote
6) In flop games, if either of the first 2 cards dealt off the deck or any other 2 downcards are exposed by dealer error.

Unfortunately you don t understand my question Dave, read again ... ^^

@Nick, it's a very interesting point. I m tired, big week-end, give you my opinion on Monday !
You re rulling to leave the card can be good I think and I completely understand why ... I think that all rullings on this point ve got avantages and disavantages ...

Have a nice sunday guys !  :)

BillM16

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 571
Re: Dealing Card " flashed "
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2016, 05:23:04 AM »
Good morning Terence,

The rules that you wish to read on this matter are contained in Robert's Rules of Poker (RRoP) which you can find here
http://www.pokercoach.us/.

The TDA rule #34, which Dave mentioned, alludes to the well-known process for replacing exposed cards in part B: Players may be dealt 2 consecutive cards on the button.

This is another example of TDA members attempting to keep the TDA Rules brief.  The TDA Rules often exclude or limit information that is either common knowledge or covered in RRoP. 

As to the debate on the qualifications on exposed: I agree with those that replace any card that was exposed - either partially or fully.  Players are entitled to the same information.  Knowing that there is one less black card available still affects the odds of catching your black flush.  Knowing that your opponent is holding one black card is also information that can be valuable when there are 3 hearts on the flop.  Knowing whether or not a card was a face card ... etc., etc.  A flashed card is an exposed card if someone saw some part of the face.

Regards,
B~
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 05:53:50 AM by BillM16 »

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3358
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Dealing Card " flashed "
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2016, 07:01:52 AM »
Bill,

 It sounds like you're in favor of "turning" the partially exposed card over for all to see...because it was RED? The fact that in a 10 handed game of hold'em, even after the flop, turn and river...more than half of the deck is unseen by anyone! Wow, I'm not quite as versed as many others, but maybe you can explain the odds on your opponent holding the only card in the deck that you could lose to. I'll bet you've lost more than your share in those situations, just like the rest of us.

 As far as Robert's Rules; They are primarily for cash games. If we keep looking to Robert's Rules...why don't we adopt them? I very often do question why we are different on some rules.

 Back to the original question. In my opinion, we can not start turning cards over just because a player might have caught a glimpse. The good news is; the action taken occurs before any wagering has taken place. The bad news is;  unless the card is unquestionably exposed, revealing it's identity to the table, and replacing it with the burn card, could seriously alter the action and the eventual winner. 

 I remember, years ago, a rule that would allow the rightful owner of a card to refuse the card as long as he did not accept the card into his hand. "I saw that card, and I don't want it!" The obvious theory here was based on the fact that no player would refuse his proper card, unless he knew it's identity.

GreggPath

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: Dealing Card " flashed "
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2016, 11:41:28 AM »
It sounds like you're in favor of "turning" the partially exposed card over for all to see...because it was RED? The fact that in a 10 handed game of hold'em, even after the flop, turn and river...more than half of the deck is unseen by anyone!

I respectfully disagree. Knowing that a card is red can be very helpful in many situations. How would you like to be the person whose card color was seen and to have a flop of three red cards? If only one person saw the color, then that person has a big advantage over everyone else. It's just like when a card is dealt off the table. It doesn't matter if it is visible or not, you always declare that card exposed. No player should EVER have information about another player's hand due to dealer error. And, like I said in my first post, if player A says they saw that player B received a red card, and then player A looks and declares it is not a red card, the card still needs to be flipped since it is now obvious they have a black card. Same if you get more specific. The only fair way to do it is to expose the card to everyone, giving them all the same information, and then switching the card with the burn.

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3358
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: Dealing Card " flashed "
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2016, 01:10:31 PM »
Gregg,

 You insist on going back and forth on this, and it's quite apparent that you don't agree with me on anything. The poker games you run are your own house games so you can continue to impose any rules you want. As long as your players agree with you continue doing it your way. The players are our "bread and butter" not the rulemakers. If you have a successful game, you must be doing something right. I wish you continued success, even though we agree on very little.

 I'm sure we'll hear from three or four of the usual suspects, while the other 1800+ members and the BOD remain silent.

GreggPath

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: Dealing Card " flashed "
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2016, 01:18:20 PM »
You insist on going back and forth on this

This isn't a matter of insisting on going back and forth. We are having a discussion. I believe that I have every right to give my opinion.

The poker games you run are your own house games


I never brought up my home game in this situation. I am talking about poker games in general. I believe the rules should be fair to all players. Allowing one player to have information that everyone else doesn't have is unfair. I'm not sure how you can disagree with that.

MikeB

  • Administrator
  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1156
Re: Dealing Card " flashed "
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2016, 08:49:07 AM »
Hi guys,

Remind me the rule for a card " flashed " by a dealer on the first or second turn to a player at seat 3 please ?

I obviously know the rule but one of my player wants to read it ... And strangely It s not in the 2015 rules ... it was in 2013 rules ...

Friendly regards.

Terence
Hi Terence: Can you please provide an example of the scenario above. I assume the game is hold'em.

Specifically:

1) By Seat 3 are you talking about the first player to the left of the BB? (i.e. the UTG seat)

2) By "first or second turn" are you talking about the 1st or 2nd downcard on the initial deal, or ?

3) I don't see any major difference between the 2013 and 2015 Rules on the subject of mis-dealing. Please indicate what part of the 2013 Rules you find language (that applies to this situation), that is not in the 2015 Rules.

Thanks for the cliarification

chet

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 734
Re: Dealing Card " flashed "
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2016, 09:29:47 AM »
My 2 cents:

If there is ANY doubt whether any player saw a flashed card on the initial deal to any position, I will pull the card back, show it to the entire table, replace it in order and make it the burn card.

Chet