Author Topic: show one show all  (Read 8138 times)

mooredog

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show one show all
« on: July 22, 2016, 12:51:48 PM »
We had a player who would get very careless protecting his hand if his immediate neighbors were no longer in the hand. He would protect their contents if they were in the hand. If they had folded he would hold his cards out and his neighboring players could see them who had already folded. At the end of the hand others wanted to see what he had and when I ruled on showing everyone his neighbors who had seen them got mad saying that since he didn't protect them and didn't show intentionally no one else should see the cards. I ruled showing your hand does not necessarily have to be intentional to qualify for show one show all. Your thoughts.

Nick C

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Re: show one show all
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2016, 01:45:27 PM »
mooredog...

 I'm with you on this one. Besides, it's a good way to discourage them from continuing their unethical practice. Reminds me of times when I was dealing and a player would flash his hand before mucking, as a precaution, I would touch the cards to the muck and expose them to the table.

GreggPath

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Re: show one show all
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2016, 08:11:58 PM »
I agree. Good call.

BillM16

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Re: show one show all
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2016, 06:38:22 AM »
Note that the Show One Show All is an RRoP rule and is not established in the TDA rules. 

In TDA, there is Rule #62: No Disclosure that says:

Players must protect other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore players, whether in the hand or not, must not:
     1.  Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
     2.  Advise or criticize play at any time,
     3.  Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.
One-player-to-a-hand is in effect. Among other things, this rule prohibits showing a hand to or discussing strategy with another player, advisor, or spectator.


In RRoP, there is Rule #6: Show One Show All that says:

Players are entitled to receive equal access to information about the contents of another player’s hand. After a deal, if cards are shown to another player, every player at the table has a right to see those cards. During a deal, cards that were shown to an active player who might have a further wagering decision on that betting round must immediately be shown to all the other players. If the player who saw the cards is not involved in the deal, or cannot use the information in wagering, the information should be withheld until the betting is over, so it does not affect the normal outcome of the deal. Cards shown to a person who has no more wagering decisions on that betting round, but might use the information on a later betting round, should be shown to the other players at the conclusion of that betting round. If only a portion of the hand has been shown, there is no requirement to show any of the unseen cards. The shown cards are treated as given in the preceding part of this rule.

Regards,
B~

Dave Miller

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Re: show one show all
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2016, 07:12:34 AM »
Bill -

I'm not sure what your point is.

The TDA rule says, in short, don't expose cards. It doesn't say what to do if cards are exposed.

The RRoP says, if cards are exposed (thus implying that cards should not be exposed), do x, y or z depending on a, b or c.

These rules are complimentary, not contradictory.

RRoP also makes a note that some players overlook, that 'show all' refers to players, not cards.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

BillM16

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Re: show one show all
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2016, 07:37:15 AM »
I'm not sure what your point is.

Good morning Dave,

I agree that these are complimentary.  My point is simply this:  All to often the TDA Rules presume that the reader is an experienced poker player or tournament director that knows all of the common knowledge rules and perhaps even all of the RRoP rules.  It doesn't recognize that there are many novice players who lack that level of knowledge and experience.  In most cases these details are left out of TDA in an effort to keep the rules concise.  However, brevity should not be at the expense of comprehension.  Sure, most everyone knows Show One Show All ... and IMO in belongs in the TDA Rules.  I also agree with Nick that enforcing SOSA is the best deterrent to this etiquette violation.

Regards,
B~
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 10:05:44 AM by BillM16 »

Max D

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Re: show one show all
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2016, 10:55:30 AM »
I agree with Nick on his process to show all.  Also if you have a rule book it should be a combination of RRoP, TDA, and house rules which can give the missing guidance on some of the TDA rules.
Max D
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Nick C

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Re: show one show all
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2016, 12:33:34 PM »
Gentlemen:

 This is a good post for me to vent, just a bit. Anyone that follows the TDA Forum is probably sick of hearing my rants. If I may take a minute to better explain exactly why I feel the way I do. Years ago, when I first began running poker games, I realized that I would need some solid rules to go by. Running a home game does have some advantages, such as the selection of crazy games that we will never see in a casino environment...but the lack of security and keeping a sometimes rowdy bunch of players under control takes some solid rules. I learned those rules...I applied those rules...and they carried over to my years as a dealer, instructor and floorman for nearly 20 years while I lived in Las Vegas.

 Now, let's get to my point. There have been many changes in poker through the years, primarily, the shift in popularity from draw and stud, to hold'em, Omaha and some other mixed games. The explosion of Hold'em in 2003 when Chris Moneymaker won the WSOP Main Event along with the simultaneous airing of televised poker on the Travel Channel. Suddenly, all of those major casino's that abandoned the game, began re-opening their Poker Rooms. The rest is history! Sure, it might have slowed down a bit, but I think it's here to stay.

 My biggest question will always be: Why was a rule changed? Some needed to change because of cell phones and different technology applied to the game. Bravo Systems and auto shufflers, etc. etc. When an old rule, that withstood the test of time, is changed...I need to know why? I need to know what reasoning is behind the change? What terrible happening occurred that called for the change?  I also would like to know who suggested it? Being a poker dealer instructor for over 35 years, I need to understand every single rule that's on the books. I joined the TDA for this  purpose. If a rule is changed, I want to know why. If I don't understand what the rule is trying to say, I'm frustrated. So I hope everyone understands where I'm coming from when I debate so many of these situations. My suggestion for all players at the showdown, in for all bets, to show their hands would eliminate TDA #13, 14, 15, and 16. Plus a whole bunch of headaches for everyone. I take pride in being a good teacher and find it impossible when I can't explain a rule because I don't understand it!

 

Nick C

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Re: show one show all
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2016, 08:16:00 PM »
I thought that I'd get some response to my last post, but I'll just say; no news is good news. I'd also like to thank BillM16, Dave Miller,
 Max D, and GreggPath for speaking up and voicing an opinion.  The silent majority of members contribute very little to the TDA. I've fought back many times and know that my input had a impact on some of the proposed rules that were voted down, and some that were even entered and then changed back to their original state. I will continue to speak up whenever I feel that a rule needs some tweaking, or a rule is proposed that frankly makes little sense and does not protect the integrity of the game.

Thanks for listening.

Max D

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Re: show one show all
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2016, 09:08:54 AM »
Nick,

Healthy debate is good and hopefully it helps evolve the rules to be best for players, dealers and TD.  I love the fact that your proposal here would remove rules rather than add...  Simplifying is a thing of beauty.
Max D
Less talking, more dealing.

Nick C

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Re: show one show all
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2016, 09:20:21 AM »
Max D.

 1777 members...it's comforting to know that I have at least one that agrees with me...on one subject, anyway! ;D

BillM16

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Re: show one show all
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2016, 02:12:15 PM »
I thought that I'd get some response to my last post, but I'll just say; no news is good news. I'd also like to thank BillM16, Dave Miller,
 Max D, and GreggPath for speaking up and voicing an opinion.  The silent majority of members contribute very little to the TDA. I've fought back many times and know that my input had a impact on some of the proposed rules that were voted down, and some that were even entered and then changed back to their original state. I will continue to speak up whenever I feel that a rule needs some tweaking, or a rule is proposed that frankly makes little sense and does not protect the integrity of the game.

Thanks for listening.

Nick,
As you know, I respectfully disagree with your proposal as I currently understand it.  However, I do encourage you to start a separate thread to have your proposal fully detailed and debated and perhaps to bring it to the 2017 Summit for a vote.  Perhaps a separate thread would better give you the opportunity to air your position.  It should work better than tacking it onto threads that are somewhat related but are not directly addressing the points of your proposed changes to the rules.
Regards,
B~
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 02:13:35 PM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: show one show all
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2016, 04:05:21 PM »
Thanks Bill, but if you search the archives you'll see that I've been lobbying for the same changes for 6 years! I will continue to interject my very old suggestions, with the hope that someone will realize that the complaints and confusion we face at the tables today, are the same ones we addressed years ago.

 I'm not sure I know which proposal I've suggested, that you don't agree with. Would you explain? Please keep the list brief. ;D

BillM16

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Re: show one show all
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2016, 07:07:20 AM »
Thanks Bill, but if you search the archives you'll see that I've been lobbying for the same changes for 6 years! I will continue to interject my very old suggestions, with the hope that someone will realize that the complaints and confusion we face at the tables today, are the same ones we addressed years ago.

 I'm not sure I know which proposal I've suggested, that you don't agree with. Would you explain? Please keep the list brief. ;D

Nick,

I think it would be very helpful for everyone if you would take the time and make the effort to enumerate your proposals that you've been lobbying for in a separate thread.  You have made 2757 posts over the 6 years and you are most qualified to present a summary of your proposed changes and opinions.  Don't leave it to me and others to search the archives.  To quote an experienced and respected TDA Member - Would you explain?  Please keep the list brief. ;D

Regards,
B~
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 07:15:38 AM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: show one show all
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2016, 08:27:09 AM »
Bill,

 Thanks for the mention, "experienced and respected." I'm not looking for respect, but the experience can't be denied. :D

 You're also correct about the posts. I have 2757 (plus this one), mainly because I've been repeating myself about 2000 times. Why? Because I don't get answers, that's why.

 Bill, I'll ask you again, "which proposal did I suggest that you don't agree with?"

 I see no point in "taking the time and enumerating my proposals"...again. Anyone that has an interest in learning the purpose for a specific ruling can navigate through years of valuable information on this forum. I know the rules, even the ones I don't like. My objective is to make the rules easier for others to understand.

 In over 50 years of playing poker, I've never known a single person that agrees on every rule. That is, unless you wrote your own. :D

 The purpose of the TDA is to adopt a uniform set of poker tournament rules worldwide. In my opinion, we're not there yet.