Author Topic: All-in or Call?  (Read 14706 times)

pastor

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All-in or Call?
« on: January 28, 2016, 09:17:58 AM »
NLH Tournamet
A. SB – 600
B. BB – 1200
C. puts out LAST two 1000 chips without declaring raise or call (silent)
Dealer didn't say nothing.
D. Call 2000
E. Raise 5000 total
Acton go back to:
SB – Fold
BB – Fold
Dealer stop on C. and say All-in. In this moment player C. say I'm not All-in!

Q. How you will ruled this situation?
It's a really complicated situation in different scenarios.
I know that TDA ruels does not mention that all chips in the pot is all-in (or something similar).

Nick C

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Re: All-in or Call?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2016, 10:09:06 AM »
Hello Pastor,

 First of all, the dealer should have recognized the bet from Player C as a call of 1200. The oversize chip rule should apply. However, because the action was allowed to continue to two more players, (D call 2000 & E Raise to 5000)...Player C is all-in whether he likes it or not.

Dave Miller

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Re: All-in or Call?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2016, 11:44:15 AM »
Nick -

Why was D allowed to call an undeclared/unrecognized bet?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

pastor

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Re: All-in or Call?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2016, 12:13:59 PM »
I agree with you Nick, I have acted exactly like you said.

Max D

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Re: All-in or Call?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2016, 12:42:23 PM »
Substantial action has happened I agree that the player C is all in.  Player needs to make is intentions clearer.
Max D
Less talking, more dealing.

Dave Miller

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Re: All-in or Call?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2016, 02:15:25 PM »
The dealer made a mistake by not declaring C's bet, then compounded it by allowing D's call of an undeclared amount.

Is C under any obligation to say anything before the action returns to him? I think not. In fact, by not saying anything sooner, it allows C to force D's prior action to be a call of 1,200 and therefore allows D to fold for only 1,200 rather than 2,000.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 02:16:28 PM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: All-in or Call?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2016, 07:35:38 PM »
Dave,
 It's obvious that Player D thought that Player C raised to 2000. Accepting Player D's 2000 was a mistake that was allowed by both Player C and the dealer...once Player E raised to 5000, it was too late to fix the errors.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 08:24:49 PM by Nick C »

Dave Miller

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Re: All-in or Call?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2016, 08:09:56 PM »
Nick -

While I understand what you're saying, I'm looking at it from Player C's perspective, and therefore disagree.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Steff0111

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Re: All-in or Call?
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2016, 12:26:30 AM »
But player C was unalerted to the action!
He didn´t noticed the error- so he unfortunally accepted the action.
All-In for player C!

BillM16

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Re: All-in or Call?
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2016, 09:16:50 AM »
Player C is all-in and I would never allow this obvious attempt at angle-shooting to be rewarded with a decision to a call.  Everyone knows that pushing all of your chips into the pot is an all-in bet unless you CLEARLY declare otherwise.  The fact that he waited to see how many callers he had is also a dead giveaway!
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 09:20:36 AM by BillM16 »

Dave Miller

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Re: All-in or Call?
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2016, 11:26:41 AM »
So it's angle-shooting to take advantage of a player's mistake?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: All-in or Call?
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2016, 02:35:12 PM »
Dave,

 How in the world do you know it was a mistake? Let's try to implement a rule that will prevent, or discourage the same player from making the same mistake again, and again and again....

 Say what you mean and the dealer will be able to get it right. I wish I had a dollar for every time someone said that the dealers are not mind readers...well let me say it one more time...the dealers are not....

Dave Miller

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Re: All-in or Call?
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2016, 03:56:42 PM »
Right. And players are not mind readers either, yet player D seems to have read player C's mind, but did it incorrectly.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Dave Miller

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Re: All-in or Call?
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2016, 07:03:44 PM »
How in the world do you know it was a mistake?
There is no requirement for a player to announce their actions. According to the rules, Player C's bet is only a call. Is the dealer required to announce the bet? If so, there's the first mistake.

Player D said "Call 2000". Since the action to him was only 1200, saying '2000' was a mistake. His first word was 'call'. Since Player C's bet should have been a call, Player D's bet should have been a call of the original 1200, and the dealer should have stopped the action at that point to clarify that the call of 1200. That's another dealer mistake.


Player C could have been very sharp in recognizing these errors and choosing to remain silent. He also could have only heard the 'Call' part of player D's statement, and didn't realize there was an issue until the dealer told him he was unknowingly all-in.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 07:11:00 PM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: All-in or Call?
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2016, 10:26:24 PM »
Okay Dave, I guess we'll disagree on this one.