Author Topic: PLAYER LEAVING FOR BREAK  (Read 12034 times)

Frank11

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PLAYER LEAVING FOR BREAK
« on: October 13, 2015, 02:00:30 AM »
Hello all,

Had an unusual situation the other day and wanted some feedback on what a good solution to the situation would have been.

It was a N/L Hold 'em tournament. A player noticed from the tournament clock the break was coming in about 30 seconds so they left the table. The player was about to be the big blind the next hand. Neither the dealer or the TD noticed it was break time. The dealer subsequently posted the players' blind and ante and dealt them in. This went on for about 5 minutes before anyone noticed it was break time. The player comes back and notices his blinds and antes were posted and he was dealt in while the tournament should have been on break. 

Solutions? Thank you.

Frank

Terence Bertault

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Re: PLAYER LEAVING FOR BREAK
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2015, 06:00:38 AM »
Hi Franck,

Is the hand started at the end of the round just before the break ?

or

The hand really starts after the beginning of the break ?

If this is this case, dealer and TD have made a big mistake ... I think that you have to introduce some chips in the tournament to give back to this player ...
Explains to all the players, note it for you for the chips control and put it on your software that manages your tournament for the average. ( Possible on Tournament Director )

Is there a player on SB or others players at the table ? Why don't they reacted ?

It's a quite strange situation ...

Friendly regards.

chet

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Re: PLAYER LEAVING FOR BREAK
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2015, 09:29:40 AM »
I have to disagree.  Again the player has some responsibility here.  He left the table and in a tournament, he is still responsible for blinds and antes.  It is unfortunate, but I see no regress here.

Chet

Terence Bertault

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Re: PLAYER LEAVING FOR BREAK
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2015, 10:26:46 AM »
Hi Chet,

It was a break my friend ! lol

In break, the game is stopped !

Do you want that players never go to break again after a ruling like this ?
Having to wait the end of the hand, all players at the table when a guy is tanking in a big pot during 15min maybe all the break ?

This hand didn't had to be played ... never ... there's no equity here ... It's not fair ...

This player has the right to leave ... The dealer doesn t had to begin a new hand ...
Who doesn't respect the rules ?

 ;D

Max D

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Re: PLAYER LEAVING FOR BREAK
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2015, 11:33:58 AM »
I agree with Chet, also he left before the hand was completed and before the break started therefore tough for the player to argue since he wasnt there when the break actually started.  Also there was substantial action since a hand was played therefore the blind and ante cannot be returned.

Max
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 11:38:33 AM by Max D »
Max D
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Dave Miller

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Re: PLAYER LEAVING FOR BREAK
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2015, 01:40:46 PM »
It's not a break until the TD announces a break.

It's the players responsibility to be aware of the action, including whether or not the TD announces the break.

Not that it matters, but did the player at least mention to anyone that the break was coming?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Max D

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Re: PLAYER LEAVING FOR BREAK
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2015, 02:59:47 PM »
It's not a break until the TD announces a break.
Agreed
Max D
Less talking, more dealing.

Dave Miller

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Re: PLAYER LEAVING FOR BREAK
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2015, 07:19:07 PM »
The more I think about it, the more I wanna ask if this guy is the type to claim "I was already posted" if he gets hit with the new level...
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Terence Bertault

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Re: PLAYER LEAVING FOR BREAK
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2015, 11:37:21 PM »
It's not a break until the TD announces a break.

Where do you read that in the TDA rules ? I'm curious ...

Are you the kind of TDs that don't recognize when an error was made guys ? lol

Interesting talking by the way ...

Max D

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Re: PLAYER LEAVING FOR BREAK
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2015, 08:19:24 AM »
Well Terence,

The player wasn't at the table when the clock ran out, so how does he know that the blind were not posted with only a couple second left...  Did anyone else complain?
Max D
Less talking, more dealing.

chet

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Re: PLAYER LEAVING FOR BREAK
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2015, 08:44:37 AM »
Terence:

Please read the introductory paragraph of the TDA Rules.  In case you don't have them handy here is the paragraph to which I refer:

"The Poker TDA is a voluntary poker industry association founded in 2001. The TDA mission is to increase global uniformity of poker
tournament rules. TDA Rules supplement the rules of this house. In case of conflict with a gaming agency, the agency rules apply."

In particular, I am referring to the third sentence, which reads, "TDA Rules supplement the rules of this house."  I don't believe that the TDA Board, ever intended the TDA rules to be "Stand Alone", "All-Inclusive", "all other rules do not apply to poker tournaments, only ours".

In my opinion the TDA rules are intended to "eliminate confusing rules, conflicting rules, incomplete rules or other wise fill in the blanks where needed, so there is as close as possible consistency from event to event, venue to venue, etc.

So, if this is a big problem for you in your venue(s), develop a house rule and the problem will be solved.  Personally, as I thought I indicated in my original response, I think it is up to the player.  Sure, the dealer made a mistake and the TD didn't call the break, but that might be because he was busy with other duties.  I see no regress for the player who is not paying attention.

Chet

Terence Bertault

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Re: PLAYER LEAVING FOR BREAK
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2015, 12:35:19 PM »
Hi Chet,

Thanks for your answer, I appreciate it.

I think with your ruling and I respect it and your job in your casino, you may create a " jurisprudence " ( don t know the english word for that, sorry ) and it will not be good for ou industry.

It's my point of view and you have several TDs here who are ok with you.

For me a TD has always to justify his ruling with a written rule when it s possible ... It my enter in " Player responsability " ad I m ok with that ... but it will be very to understand for a player ...

Sometimes when you make an error, it's better to assum it.

We are humans, not robots ... mistake happens sometimes but we ve got to clearly assum it.

Friendly regards.

Terence

chet

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Re: PLAYER LEAVING FOR BREAK
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2015, 04:38:27 PM »
Terence:

No Problem here, btw, I don't work in a casino, never have.   :D

If you want to rely on a written rule (which I think is a good idea), then develop one for your "House Rules".  Should solve the problem.

Take care and good luck,

Chet

Dave Miller

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Re: PLAYER LEAVING FOR BREAK
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2015, 04:57:48 AM »
It's not a break until the TD announces a break.
Where do you read that in the TDA rules ? I'm curious ...
In the dictionary. It's what a director does ... Directs the actions of others.

It is irrelevant why the TD didn't announce the break on time. Dealers should never raise blinds, or stop the game, unless directed by the TD. To do otherwise means that all tables may not all be at the same level.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Max D

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Re: PLAYER LEAVING FOR BREAK
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2015, 10:07:03 AM »
Terence:

No Problem here, btw, I don't work in a casino, never have.   :D

If you want to rely on a written rule (which I think is a good idea), then develop one for your "House Rules".  Should solve the problem.

Take care and good luck,

Chet

Terrence this is what I did, I took Robert's rules as the base and then replaced the rules that conflicted with TDA with the TDA rules.  That creates a "book" of rules if this is what your players need.
Max D
Less talking, more dealing.