Auto All-in & Auto Call Rule

[Terence Bertault]

Hi guys,

This rule is applied in the world in some houses.

A friend of me ve got penalty for that on the WPT Montreal !
( He didn't call a 2.5BB all-in and took a two rounds penalty )

I use it in my casino.

I name it like that but I don't really know the name of this rule.

It's about fighting against collusion, chipdumping and teamplay ...

A big stack on BB when everybody has folded isn't allowed to fold when a shortstack player is all-in with 2.5BB or less.
A big stack on SB with a 2.5BB or less on BB have to go all-in.

Can we discussed about this rule maybe to put it in 2017 TDA rules ?
Being agreed on the limit to call or shove ?

We can't force a player's action !
But I think we have to him a penalty.

What do you think ?

Friendly regards.

Terence

[Nick C]

Terrance,

 I might not be in the majority but...I don't like any rule that penalizes a player (Big Blind or not) for not putting more chips into the pot if they don't want to. Poker is a game of skill and strategy, being forced to play a hand because the raise is minimal should have nothing to do with it. A player calls a wager because he believes he has a chance to win...A player raising a wager is either trying to get more chips into the pot or he is hoping his opponent will fold.

[Terence Bertault]

Hi Nick,

Always a pleasure to read you !

Maybe you work in a big Poker Room and have a field of 200/300 players but you know it's hard to fight against teamplay, collusion, chipdumping when you have regular friends players with a 30 or 50 players field ... or several players of the same family on a table or a final table ...

It's a mathematical shove or call my friend, Poker is not a game of feeling ... It's a game of strategy, statistic, probability and mathematic ! ( And luck obvious AhAh )
You know that if his two cards are alive, he will have between 30 and 40% of chance to win the pot even if he has got 7-2o ... 

You are talking about recreative players for me, they only play their good cards without math, prob, stat and strategy ... Can we say that they have skill ?
Obvious poker is a money game and everybody can be able to play his money has he wants but we have to educate players by the rules ...

I don't like this rule too and I was firts agreed with you but our job is to control the equity of the game so sometimes we have to ... We can't write and apply a rule for several players because we have doubts on them. I think we have to make rules for all the players !

Good Sunday my friend !

 

[Nick C]

Terrance,

 A good Sunday to you, as well. I am always on the side of fairness and will support any rule that would prevent collusion. However, I have always been opposed to basing my decision on how a player "should" play his hand...it is not my duty, as a TD or floorman, to dictate how any player should play his pocket aces, or his 7 deuce off. There are always exceptions to rules. If I know that any player is intentionally in collusion with another player, of course disciplinary action should be enforced.

 In my opinion, tournament poker should demand that the best hand at showdown MUST get the pot! I also believe that each player has a right to play his hand any way he likes, as long as he is acting "in turn" and abides by proper procedures that apply, such as calling, folding or raising!

 I don't know how you feel about this but, if I were holding pocket aces and the TD forced a player to call me with his 7 deuce off because it was only a minimal increase...only to see the flop come 2-2-7  I wouldn't be too happy. How about you?

 I also do not work in cardrooms with very large fields. Like you, I am more likely to work smaller groups with only a few tables. It has also been my experience that friends and family members that play against each other are very competitive and collusion is rarely an issue.

 Thanks for the interesting posts.

[Terence Bertault]

Hi Nick,

If I ve got 2.5BB or less and there is a big stack on BB and no callers, if the rules is written, I will know that I can be call by any two cards by the BB; if it's the rules, I ve got to accept it ... and it will be more easily to accept because a player have to know the rules ...

Hope you understand this point of view !

Our job isn t to tell players how to play a hand and we don t have to force the call of a player but we have to penalize him if he takes the wrong decision ...

Players sometimes ask me " Do I have to call here ? " because of this rule and I always say that my job isn't to give an anwser to this question and helping the player in the game or teach him how to play poker; my job is to put a penalty if I think he should have to call ...

 

[Max D]

I am with Nick on that one, I don't think a player should be forced to call because he has the chips to do it...  After all it is their chips to use as they want, and what if suddenly they have two or three of these calls to make in a few rotations...  and loose all three and become short stack because of the "2.5 blind" rules?  I don't see it as a fair rule and believe that any chips going into the pot are a player's decision.

Max

[Dave Miller]

 I agree with Nick and Max.

This is no different than the very controversial rule that a player with the nuts in position is forced to bet on the final street.

 You can't force a player to make a bet if they don't want to. Period.

[Terence Bertault]

Hi Max,

I'm agreed with you on the multiple same actions in few or maybe one rotation ... It's for me the most important fact against the application of this rule.

So what ? Don t write a rule and let the players easily teamplay ??

In the auto-call rule, we talk about big stack maybe after three calls he s not a big stack anymore ?

Where TDs using this rule have seen it ? Have you seen it write before somewhere ?

I don t force it to call, I penalize him if he doesn t !! ^^
The penalty can be very very light ...

 

[Max D]

Terence,

I think the difference seems to be that most of the TD here are not seeing a lot of collusion in our game, you may have a different problem if a lot of players are willing to cheat, of course you always have the option to build-in a "house rule" for your games if it is really an issue.

Max

[Brian Vickers]

Eeek. Sorry, I appreciate the idea behind this, but there comes a point in the tournament where 2.5BB is a huge chunk of change.  Sorry, people may play their hand how they want, but if you suspect collusion you have the right to inspect that hand and if you believe the evidence points to collusion or dumping handle that accordingly.  In a satellite or at a final table I may want to blind my way into the money and not call of any extra chips.

[Terence Bertault]

Hi Brian !

I manage tournaments and cash game in Indian Ocean and islands like Reunion Island, Mauritius, Madagascar, Seychelles ...

Small field, friends, players from the same family, semi-pro players swapping their ITM ...

My biggest tournament was 200 players ... I ve got my circuit the " Mascareignes Poker Series " where I ve got 110 players for average !
Obvious you don't know it lol maybe you don't know those Islands, perhaps Madagascar with the Disney movie !
And I m alone ahah sometimes I manage 25 tables alone with differents formats and variants ! 

I'm strict on collusion and have banned several players already ... I'm not proud of this but it's our job ...

All my players know themselves ... even from differents islands because they meet several times on a year ...

I ve got big tournaments 6 times a year and I rule 6 days on 7 tourneys in my Poker Circle ... where I ve got maybe 50 regular players ... with small groups depending of their community ... ( chinese, créole, french, english strangers ) ... It's quite hard sometimes but I educate my players with rules and they all know that I m a good TD, they say " the best of Indian Ocean " thanks to the TDA ... I ve worked a lot for that ... Nobody has teached me, I'm self-educated ...

My strength is that I was a player before, a semi-pro, I have began to play in 2003 ( I'm 35 ) and I understand very well the game, situations and how to interpret rules to manage litigations.

Here's the cool story of the day guys ! lol

@Max : Yep I think you have big field where players don t know them ... It's a chance guys, be sure ! 

@Brian : Obvious sometimes I open cards but without it's my discretion to say if a player have to play or not ! There's no range written for that so it always hard for a player to accept ! Hope you undertand what I want to say about that !

You know that it's easy to teamplay making collusion when it's done well ...

For info, when I use this rule, I look the type of tournament ( I don't used it on satellite the most of the time ), average & blinds ... etc ... And at first I look whose players are involved in the hand ! ^^

In my regular tournament, you have to know that ITM are always in final table with the blinds schedule at the end of course so players aren't very deep ... This why it's quite hard to manage ...

I promise that a friend of me has got penalized for that on a WPT in Montreal so with an enormous field !
WPT uses TDA rules I think ... My friend is from Reunion Island and don't know anybody ... lol

So how to explain that ?

Thanks for all your answers guys, I appreciate a lot and like also your point of view.

 

[Lafrog66]

I agree with Nick and Max.

This is no different than the very controversial rule that a player with the nuts in position is forced to bet on the final street.

 You can't force a player to make a bet if they don't want to. Period.

Totally not the same thing here... Why would a player who is last to talk WITH the nuts would want to check ,if not to help his "friend" lose less chips?

There is only one reason to check with the nuts and that is called COLLUSION.

[Lafrog66]

I must side against the "Terrence Bill" here.

Forcing a player to play a hand is ANTI-poker in my book.

Furthermore, since both player stands to have "live cards" as you say there are no guaranty that the big stack will win that pot so your rule could have a low stack coming back to life by virtue of a rule... I am not even convince that calling with any 2 cards is a good play here, the purpose is to knock players off and that combined with a relatively low chips gain (on the side of the big stack) make it a bad play IMHO. 

And then you have go go on defining what is and id not a big stack and having other low stack not threatened 9or advantaged) in the same way by their "not big stack" neighbor.

All in all, and with all due respect, I find this proposition lacks in merit and applicability.

[Dave Miller]

I agree with Nick and Max.

This is no different than the very controversial rule that a player with the nuts in position is forced to bet on the final street.

 You can't force a player to make a bet if they don't want to. Period.

Totally not the same thing here... Why would a player who is last to talk WITH the nuts would want to check ,if not to help his "friend" lose less chips?

There is only one reason to check with the nuts and that is called COLLUSION.

Read your poker magazines. There's another reason. A big one.  If you believe the other players will fold to any bet, there's no benefit to betting. Quite the opposite in fact. By checking with the nuts in that position, you get to see what the other players were playing.

[Terence Bertault]

Hi guys,

This nuts rule doesn t exit anymore in TDA ?

I'm right ?