Author Topic: Dead button rule  (Read 17276 times)

Shanoir

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Dead button rule
« on: September 17, 2015, 02:46:12 AM »
I am using the dead button rule, and I have a problem positionning the button...
The dead button rules means that the BB moves and the SB and the button moves accordingly...

What happen in this particular situation ?
Seat 1 is button.
Seat 2 is SB
Seat 3 and Seat 4 are empty
Seat 5 is BB
The hand starts, and during the Hand seat 3 and 4 are Filled with 2 new players moved from another table (no other seats at tables are available)

Next Hand the BB moves to seat 6, the SB moves to Seat 5.
My question is where to put the button, using the dead button rule ?

In my opinion, (and i am not sure of this) the button must be in seat 4 (since the seat is not free), and the 2 new players can play the hand.
OR
the button moves to seat 2 (and the new players in 3 and 4 have to wait)

What is the correct solution please ?
Thanks for your time



Nick C

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Re: Dead button rule
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2015, 04:58:15 AM »
Welcome, Shanoir.

 You are correct when you said the new players (seat 3 & 4) must wait. "the button moves to seat 2 (and the new players in 3 and 4 have to wait)"

Great question!

Dave Miller

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Re: Dead button rule
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2015, 06:35:38 AM »
Whether using the Dead Button or Moving Button, the idea is that every player must pay both blinds, and get an opportunity to be the button, on every orbit.

Do not confuse moving the dead button to an empty seat with the Moving Button rule. In the Moving Button rule, players cannot be the button more than once per orbit, but it comes with the unusual conditions that sometimes there will be more than one big or small blind. It is because that rule is so confusing that most rooms use the Dead Button rule.

With the Dead Button rule, if the SB is eliminated, the physical button can either stay put or move to the empty seat. Either way, the prior button player gets to act last.

Some rooms favor moving the physical button to the empty seat, because that helps the dealer remember where the button and blinds are.

Therefore, in the above example, the physical button will move to seat 2 and the new players in seat 3 and 4 must wait till the next hand, when seat 5 is the button.



But it makes me think of a new scenario:


Seat 1 is the button.
Seat 2 is SB.
Seat 3 is BB.

During the hand, seat 3 is eliminated. The next hand seat 2 is the Button, and seat 4 is BB with no SB.

During this new hand, seat 3 gets filled.

On the next hand, the blinds are seats 4 & 5. As stated above, the physical button can move to seat 3. If so, can seat 3 play? After all, seat 2 already had his opportunity to be the button. The pub league I deal for uses this rule. After all, its just a friendly free poker league.

But in a casino, can seat 3 play? Does it matter if we're talking about a tournament vs a broken cash game?
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Nick C

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Re: Dead button rule
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2015, 07:05:24 AM »
Dave,

 I agree with most of what you've stated, however I also believe you are adding to your own indecision. The button should not remain in the same seat...it moves to the vacated seat of the prior SB...thus the term "Dead Button Rule." I realize the end result is the same player having the advantage of the button position two hands in succession, but that's the way it is.

 The new player that appears to be "on the button" will not get a hand...the button is dead.

 This has always been a sore spot with many players that prefer the moving button, however, the moving button has it's drawbacks, too.

Shanoir

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Re: Dead button rule
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2015, 06:59:26 AM »

If i remember well, there was a rule saying :
"you cannot deny to a player the right to have the button if he was SB". (but i cannot find this rule in TDA anymore)
That will explain why you move the button to seat 2 in my example...

Concerning Dave example, I do not understand why the new player that appears to be "on the button" will not get a hand...
In this case, you will prefer to see the same player (new CO to play twice in the button situation), rather than see a new player getting the button.
Since BB and SB are not affected, why do you not allow the new play to play in the button ? What rule you know makes you take this decision ?

Thanks for your time

Nick C

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Re: Dead button rule
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2015, 06:01:57 PM »
Shanoir,

 The best way for me to explain it is to advise you to assign the seats but tell the players not to sit in them until the button goes by. Allowing a new player to occupy an empty seat in the SB position is not allowed in tournament poker unless new seats are redrawn for that table.

 There is a method used in cash games that allows a player coming into the SB to "buy the button" but that is strictly for cash games.

chet

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Re: Dead button rule
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2015, 09:55:57 AM »
Nick:  What about when a table is breaking?  Isn't it correct that a player coming in from a table that has been broken is due all the rights and responsibilities of the new seat to which he/she is assigned, including the BB, the SB and the Button? 

Chet

Nick C

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Re: Dead button rule
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2015, 04:14:54 PM »
Chet,
 I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule, but I've always found it more practical for these new players to wait one hand, rather than disrupt the normal rotation of the blinds. I also find it difficult to follow many of these scenarios without laying it out on the table in front of me (which I did not do :D). If you can put a new player in the SB and allow him the button on the next hand, without altering the normal placement of the BB, or without pissing someone off! (phew! ::)) go for it! Or...he can get acclimated to his new surroundings, miss one hand, and start in a great position on the next deal.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 12:02:49 AM by Nick C »

Brian Vickers

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Re: Dead button rule
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2015, 02:28:22 PM »
3 and 4 are not entitled to hands because they are coming in between the button and the natural small blind.  I'm not completely sure where the confusion lies unless I'm misunderstanding something.  Seat 2 was the SB last hand and so he should be the Button this hand.  Seat 5 was the BB last hand and is now the SB.  There is no dead button in this case, as I did not read anything about a player getting knocked out, and the only time you have a dead button is when the previous SB player is knocked out.  Did I miss something here?

Dave Miller

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Re: Dead button rule
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2015, 03:47:32 PM »
I'm reviewing the new rules while in-flight, heading to Vegas. LOL.
Quote from: TDA Rules
9: Breaking Tables

Players from a broken table will be assigned new tables and seats by a 2-step random process. They can get any seat including a blind or button and be dealt in except between the small blind and button. See Illustration Addendum.

Wait a sec...

That means, in the example where a player moves into the vacated seat that would be SB or button, he WILL get to play that position. Or am I missing something?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 03:49:07 PM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Lafrog66

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Re: Dead button rule
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2015, 02:19:16 PM »
I'm reviewing the new rules while in-flight, heading to Vegas. LOL.
Quote from: TDA Rules
9: Breaking Tables

Players from a broken table will be assigned new tables and seats by a 2-step random process. They can get any seat including a blind or button and be dealt in except between the small blind and button. See Illustration Addendum.

Wait a sec...

That means, in the example where a player moves into the vacated seat that would be SB or button, he WILL get to play that position. Or am I missing something?

If the player comes from a broken table, yes, he gets to play, but ONLY if he comes from a broken table... The problem I have with this rule is that from a dealer POV, you do not know "how" that player came to your table. On big tournament with many tables it is not uncommon to have 5 or 6 new bust outs while players from a broken table are still on transit (preventing the dealer from assuming the new player comes from a broken table since the board is displaying that the tournament is halfway towards another table break) and seldom do they have a floor person chaperon telling the dealer if that new player SHOULD assume his new position or NOT.

In short, I do not know why we differentiate between players coming from a broken table and players that come in as new players or alternates... In my mind they should all wait.

Dave Miller

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Re: Dead button rule
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2015, 03:09:56 PM »
While I agree with some parts, I disagree with other parts.

The player coming in will either have a receipt indicating he is a new player or rebuy, or a seat number card from the double blind reassignment, or has a floor person chaperone.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 03:11:04 PM by Dave Miller »
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Terence Bertault

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Re: Dead button rule
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2015, 04:16:25 PM »
It's easy guys,

Two rules :

- The BB always goes forward so no player can jump the BB ...
- The right to be button ... A player who is SB have to be at the button the hand after ...


So sometimes players have to wait one round to play ...

When a table breaks, players have to assum their new positions and seats, unlucky but sometimes have to be BB twice !

The right of button is from Robert's book no ??

Friendly regards.

Terence

Dave Miller

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Re: Dead button rule
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2015, 04:20:01 PM »
Terrence -

You're missing the part where a player is coming in to a seat vacated by a player who was a blind. If the seat was the SB, and would otherwise be the button, could the new player be the button? After all, if he came from another table, he's been paying his blinds, and the button player already had his button for that orbit.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

Nick C

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Re: Dead button rule
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2015, 05:55:58 AM »
Dave,

 The way I see it: As a last resort only, if there are no other options (because in tournament poker being dealt out violates "proper card") the new player may be forced to take that seat. I don't like it, either. That is why we always place the new player from worst position to worst position. The only other option is a table redraw, which I'd rather do (for a final table) most of the time.

 It does get confusing when we read that a player can not occupy the seat between the button and the SB, and then we read another rule that says on occasion a player may get the SB or BB or any seat assigned ???

 Let's face it, unless we adopt the rules applied to cash games for tournaments, there's no logical solution. The player either sits out and waits for the button to pass him, or we debate all of these problems created by this situation.