Author Topic: 2015 rules #12 & 13 Showdown  (Read 5744 times)

Guillaume Gleize

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2015 rules #12 & 13 Showdown
« on: August 31, 2015, 03:11:06 PM »
Hello,

So on a board 34567 rainbow – A bets – B calls – A shows KK – B mucks is cards faces down and the dealer mix them with the muck – The dealer push the pot toward A – Another player notice that B can’t loose but split or even win – Too late or not with this new rule ?

BillM16

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Re: 2015 rules #12 & 13 Showdown
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2015, 07:31:11 PM »
GG,

Both players had the same information and Player A did the smart thing by tabling his hand to win.  Player B, on the other hand, did not and therefore is a loser and will likely become a better player by knowing that he must follow the action and play by the rules to become a winner.

Regards,
B~

p.s. It isn't a new rule.  One must show two cards to have claim to the pot for a long time.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 07:33:19 PM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: 2015 rules #12 & 13 Showdown
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2015, 11:17:22 AM »
You know how I feel about this...but I'll say it again, it isn't right for tournament poker. Why can't we just handle these situations the way we do when there is an all-in? I'll keep asking until I get a logical answer.

Brian Vickers

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Re: 2015 rules #12 & 13 Showdown
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2015, 04:41:38 PM »
Poker is a game of skill and one of the necessary skills is the ability to turn your cards face up and not muck them when you have the winner.

Nick C

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Re: 2015 rules #12 & 13 Showdown
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2015, 06:57:57 PM »
So Brian, was Phil Ivey chip dumping when he threw away his winning flush? I don't think so either but, why wonder? One more time...if Phil were all-in, could he have lost that pot? The answer is no. Why are we guaranteed that the best hand will win, only when there is an all-in? It has nothing to do with your statement about poker being a game of skill, it's about fairness and making sure that the pot goes to the best hand at the showdown. That's the way I see it, and I'm sticking to it! ;D

MikeB

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Re: 2015 rules #12 & 13 Showdown
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2015, 12:00:51 PM »
Why are we guaranteed that the best hand will win, only when there is an all-in? It has nothing to do with your statement about poker being a game of skill, it's about fairness and making sure that the pot goes to the best hand at the showdown.

There are arguments on all sides of this issue, and numerous "rights" involved. It's a matter of striking a balance.

As to the first issue: An all-in affects every player in the tournament, not just those involved in the showdown.... there's a "tournament life" on the line. This is a situation where "the right to make a mistake in reading your hand" is trumped by 1) the importance of making sure every hand that could knock that player out is exposed 2) that if the player's hand will win and keep them in the tourney, it be exposed and 3) that there be no chip-dumping if a player would otherwise be knocked out.

But other than in all-ins, the TDA has recognized that A) reading your hand correctly is part of the game AND B) in non all-in situations players can muck their hands without tabling them.

This is the balance that the TDA membership has struck between these competing interests... and it's held up since at least 2007 now.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 12:02:44 PM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: 2015 rules #12 & 13 Showdown
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2015, 08:30:01 PM »
Mike,

 Thanks for your explanations but turning all cards at the showdown would prevent all of your examples from being possible...including chip dumping! That's my case and I'm sticking to it!  :D

MikeB

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Re: 2015 rules #12 & 13 Showdown
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2015, 10:22:12 PM »
Mike,

 Thanks for your explanations but turning all cards at the showdown would prevent all of your examples from being possible...including chip dumping! That's my case and I'm sticking to it!  :D

Understood... but it would also remove the skill of reading your own hand from the game, and it is not what players want. So those are the drawbacks.

Keep in mind the WSOP has dropped it's policy of requiring all winning hands to be shown IF all other players have discarded face down at showdown... so for practical purposes the chance of implementing something like this is not likely.

BillM16

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Re: 2015 rules #12 & 13 Showdown
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2015, 06:46:40 AM »
Mike,

 Thanks for your explanations but turning all cards at the showdown would prevent all of your examples from being possible...including chip dumping! That's my case and I'm sticking to it!  :D

It would only deter the chip dumping from happening at showdown.  If two or more people are colluding to dump chips then at least one of them is likely to be smart enough to accomplish it without getting all-in and without a showdown.  What are the chances of having a TDA rule that requires players to always show their cards whenever they put chips in the pot and fold?  Why would anyone think that the best way to dump chips is to do it when the dumper has a real hand and at showdown?  The entire world saw Phil's hand - except maybe Phil - why insist on giving the chips to the best hand instead of the best player?  We need to protect the integrity of the game without ruining the game. 
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 07:12:58 AM by BillM16 »

Dave Miller

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Re: 2015 rules #12 & 13 Showdown
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2015, 06:51:05 AM »
Funny that you should mention Phil Ivey flush. I often site that hand when reminding people not to talk about the cards or the board while I a hand is still in action.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown.
But how much does it cost to knock on wood?