Author Topic: 2015 Rules 1.0 - #37 Methods of Betting: Verbal and Chips  (Read 2737 times)

BillM16

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2015 Rules 1.0 - #37 Methods of Betting: Verbal and Chips
« on: August 28, 2015, 03:28:49 PM »
I have a few questions for clarifications:

#37A - What is meant by: ... reasonable verbal declaration?

#37B - Is: ...  may be general ("call", "raise") ... meant to convey the need for verbal declarations to be one of the betting terms specified in TDA #3 Official betting terms are simple, unmistakable, time-honored declarations like: bet, raise, all-in, complete, and pot (pot-limit only).  The official terms call, fold, and check should be excluded as rule #37 pertains only to betting.

#38C - Seems to imply that silently pushing out 200 is only the same as declaring the specific amount("two hundred") but might not be the same as declaring both ("bet, two hundred") or the individual acts of saying("bet") followed by pushing out 200.  Obviously, this is not intended but it could be read as such (especially by those for whom English is not their first language).

Finally, should TDA #37 recommend the preferred method of betting to be that of combining an official term with a specific amount?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 05:04:26 PM by BillM16 »

MikeB

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Re: 2015 Rules 1.0 - #37 Methods of Betting: Verbal and Chips
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2015, 11:44:23 PM »
I have a few questions for clarifications:

#37A - What is meant by: ... reasonable verbal declaration?

That line actually reads "Clear and reasonable"... 3 situations

1: NLHE, 1-2k. Player A opens with "[mumble unintelligible]" and tosses out a 5k chip(s). Don't ask what his mumble was... it's not clear... go with the 5k tossed out.

2: Same deal, Player A opens with "three" and simultaneously tosses out 5k chip(s). Go with the 3k. it's clear and a reasonable bet given the limits.

3: Trickier. NLHE, 5-10k blinds. Player A simultaneously declares "twenty five hundred" while tossing out a 25k chip. As new TDA Board member Johnny Grooms says "more often than not, the error is on the verbal side, not the chips".  So how to rule? It's TDs discretion:

A: Rule 10K to enforce betting discipline because "verbal trumps chips"... OR
B: Rule 25K because the "twenty five hundred" is not a reasonable bet and the 25k chip toss is very clear and an allowable bet given the limits.

If you're looking for an absolute rule here, there isn't one. Its TDs discretion at this point. IMO it's a function of: A) how confident you are that 25k was the intended bet vs. B) how strongly you want to enforce betting discipline (which alot of TDs will do here regardless)... but the rule language allows you to fully use your discretion.

#37B - Is: ...  may be general ("call", "raise") ... meant to convey the need for verbal declarations to be one of the betting terms specified in TDA #3 Official betting terms are simple, unmistakable, time-honored declarations like: bet, raise, all-in, complete, and pot (pot-limit only).  
No, not necessarily meant to connect to Rule 3, though Rule 3 language always applies. It's just meant to set up that there are 3 basic ways to bet... and then the ramifications of that are really seen in the other rules.

#38C - Seems to imply that silently pushing out 200 is only the same as declaring the specific amount("two hundred") but might not be the same as declaring both ("bet, two hundred") or the individual acts of saying("bet") followed by pushing out 200.  
 However, following those other actions they all lead to 200 by their own merits.

This rule addresses this situation: NLHE 25-50 blinds. Player A opens for 150. Player B either: 1) silently tosses out one 100, and two 50's OR 2) declares "two hundred". These situations will both be treated as a bet of 200 when facing an opening bet of 150. They are both calls because they don't reach the 50% minimum raise threshold of 225.

Contrast with the idea that pushing out more than the amount to call (in this case one 100 and two 50's) is tantamount to declaring "raise". No it's not... it's tantamount to declaring "two hundred".

Finally, should TDA #37 recommend the preferred method of betting to be that of combining an official term with a specific amount?
 Not necessarily. All are valid forms of betting.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 11:48:08 PM by MikeB »