Author Topic: 2015 Illustration Addendum 1.0 - Rule 17: Asking to See a Hand - Example 1  (Read 7103 times)

BillM16

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Example 1: NLHE. 3 players remain in the hand. There is no betting on the river and no player is all-in. At showdown Player A mucks his cards face down and they are pushed into the muck by the dealer.

Player A should never fold when not facing a bet.  This is a rule violation and should not be used as an example.

MikeB

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Example 1: NLHE. 3 players remain in the hand. There is no betting on the river and no player is all-in. At showdown Player A mucks his cards face down and they are pushed into the muck by the dealer.

Player A should never fold when not facing a bet.  This is a rule violation and should not be used as an example.

Situation is at showdown.

BillM16

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OK, so it is after all betting action is complete and therefore is not a non-standard fold.  However, if Player A mucks at showdown wouldn't it be considered soft play?  After all, even deuce trey off could split the pot. 

K-Lo

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The situation in the example happens all the time. I wouldn't routinely force that first person to open if he's intent on mucking.

In my view, it's his choice to muck and surrender his claim to the pot (assuming there's no intent to chip dump) with what he thinks is a losing hand.  Even if A were to bet and the bet were called, he could muck under the same circumstances (e.g. if his "bluff" got called and he assumed he has the losing hand) even though he's first to show; the "last hand standing" rule then comes into play.

That said, if the opponent asks to see that hand (and hasn't mucked himself), then the hand would be turned over and it would be live (unless you are playing EPT rules and the "mucked" hand has already made it into the dealer's area).

Nick C

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Sorry, I agree with Bill. It would always be in the best interest of the game for all players at showdown to turn over their hands. It's the only way to guarantee that the (tournament) pot goes to the winner! It protects players from mistakes, and eliminates the possibility of chip dumping.

 I've been arguing this one for years. I wonder how many winning hands, overlooked or otherwise, were mucked at tournament showdowns? Why is the TDA so adamant about showing every hand when any player is all-in, yet allows others to muck at showdown without having to show their hand?

 In 2013 one of the new board members suggested showing all cards at showdown, all-in or not. What happened to that suggestion?

K-Lo

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Nick, i recently discussed your suggestion (which I know you've been pushing for a long time) with Neil.  In principle, I think he agreed that would be a great idea, but that frankly the players would never buy it. They [the players] place a very high value on what borders upon a "right" to hide certain information from their opponents if they choose to surrender their claim to the pot.  If you think the FCOD caused a lot of controversy....  ;)

MikeB

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OK, so it is after all betting action is complete and therefore is not a non-standard fold.  However, if Player A mucks at showdown wouldn't it be considered soft play?  After all, even deuce trey off could split the pot.  

Interesting discussion... not arguing the merits one way or the other, we just need to make sure it's clear what the 2015 rules say (and don't say):

1: This is a non all-in showdown. Players are not required to show their hands. They may choose to discard face down.

2: If cards are not spontaneously tabled or discarded, if there's betting on the river the last aggressor must show first (or discard). If no river betting, whoever would be first to act if it were a betting round must show first.

3: If there is betting action on the river, anyone who "pays to see the cards of the final aggressor" has a guaranteed right to see those cards on request.  Any other request to see a hand is at TDs discretion, is not guaranteed and may be allowed or denied. No request to see a hand (guaranteed or not) will be honored if the player does not retain his cards or has discarded his own hand without tabling. This is to encourage players to show their hand and was adopted in 2011 if memory serves.

4: The question of whether a hand shown by request is live or not has not been fully established. Some houses consider all cards at showdown live, no matter the circumstances, while others consider a discarded hand shown at the request of other than the presumed winner to be dead. I think nearly every house considers a hand shown at the request of the presumed winner to be live. This was discussed in 2013 but a supermajority was not obtained at the Summit itself. Good topic for 2017.

To Bills question of whether a bet-muck is considered soft play, IMO not necessarily. More often than not it's probably a bluff bet that a caller picked off and the last aggressor would prefer not to show his bluff (or what he thinks is a loser).
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 11:27:34 PM by MikeB »

MikeB

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the players would never buy it. They [the players] place a very high value on what borders upon a "right" to hide certain information from their opponents if they choose to surrender their claim to the pot.  If you think the FCOD caused a lot of controversy....  ;)

Players definitely don't want it.... Plus would take up much more time at showdowns if every hand had to be read every time.

Nick C

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Mike, I don't think it would take more time, besides the benefits would far outweigh problems our current rules dictate. Arguing over who has a "right" to see a called hand...awarding the pot to the wrong player...wondering if a player dumped chips. On the other side: Poor player got caught bluffing and he had to show his crappy hand!!! Too bad! Work on that bluff until you get it right and you won't have to worry about showing anything!

 I really believe the controversy is created because; for some reason the original rules have been incorrectly analyzed with the conclusion that a checked final round does not count...it should. Just because a player initiates an aggressive action on every "street" except the last, should not alter the order of showdown, or prevent any player from seeing that hand upon request. I'd like to take the language of our
TDA #15
No player who is either all-in or has called all betting action may muck his hand without tabling. All hands in both the main and sidepot(s) must be tabled and are live.  That says it all. If this rule applies to only all-in's...it needs to be changed.

MikeB

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Mike, I don't think it would take more time, besides the benefits would far outweigh problems our current rules dictate. Arguing over who has a "right" to see a called hand...awarding the pot to the wrong player...wondering if a player dumped chips. On the other side: Poor player got caught bluffing and he had to show his crappy hand!!! Too bad! Work on that bluff until you get it right and you won't have to worry about showing anything!

 I really believe the controversy is created because; for some reason the original rules have been incorrectly analyzed with the conclusion that a checked final round does not count...it should. Just because a player initiates an aggressive action on every "street" except the last, should not alter the order of showdown, or prevent any player from seeing that hand upon request. I'd like to take the language of our
TDA #15
No player who is either all-in or has called all betting action may muck his hand without tabling. All hands in both the main and sidepot(s) must be tabled and are live.  That says it all. If this rule applies to only all-in's...it needs to be changed.

Again, if you can persuade a supermajority of active players, otherwise this is not going to happen. Notice that the WSOP is also changing it's rules and no longer requiring the winning hand always be shown in an uncontested showdown.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 01:41:57 PM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Mike,
 To me uncontested means up against no other players. a.e. Player A bets and all opponents fold. In the cases we are speaking of, whether the last betting round is checked or not. At the showdown all remaining players were in for all bets unless there was an all-in. In fact, there would be no showdown! I think the issue we are having is the checked final betting round, otherwise the current rules make little sense.