Announcing a raise with no previous action

[jim.eckerson@gmail.com]

While I do not see this happen often, I need an official stance on this issue.

POST FLOP - With no prior action, a player announces a raise.

For instance, 100/200 blinds, first 2 players to act check. 3rd to act announces a raise and says 500.

Is the bet amount 500 or 700?? 

[Nick C]

Hello Jim,

 This is like so many other situations our players keep putting us in, that is: being unclear with their intentions. The way I see it, if the dealer doesn't freeze the action until the player announces his wager, or pushes it forward, be prepared for anything. What you described happens every day in every poker room, and on every betting street. Example: Player A bets 100, Player B says "raise 300."
is the bet now 300? or 400? The options to the players are: 1 push out the intended amount in one motion...as long as it's not a single oversize chip, of course. #2 Say raise and push the total amount forward in one movement. #3 Say "raise 300 more"...or #4 Say "raise to 400."

 TDA #37B addresses consequences to the players that react before the amount is clarified. You might also look to TDA #49 and rule it must be the lesser amount.

 It's probably not the definitive answer you are looking for but, until the players let us know how much they want to bet or raise, they will have to suffer the consequences when we rule their wager is not what they intended it to be. This is one of the reasons why I'm always looking to the dealer to immediately react and get it right before substantial action occurs. i.e. Player A bets 100...Player B says "raise 300!" Dealer: "hold it!...I actually hold my hand up to Player C (like a traffic cop)...then I will address Player B and make sure we understand his bet before we proceed. It's not a rule, but it's the best way I know to prevent other players from re-raising or betting the wrong amount. I really want clarification before substantial action.

That's it...hope it helps a little.

[MikeB]

Post flop the initial action is zero... So first player to act says "Raise"... IMO he's raising above a call amount of zero. So if he tosses out 500, that's a legitimate bet.

I'd make it 500 and admonish the player to say "bet" in this situation, or just push his bet out silently.

Had similar question circulating awhile back... what if the 3rd player in the OP said "call" instead of "raise". What's he calling? Consensus answer was he's calling zero, essentially checking, and will receive instructions to use proper terminology in the future.

[Nick C]

Jim,
I think Mike's answer better suites your question if it is post flop, as you originally stated. You then continued with an example where two players checked and the 3rd player said "raise 500!" You can't raise when there is no bet to call, so the single 500 chip is the bet. I think my original answer might serve as a future reference but, after reading your original post, and Mike's reply, I think Mike zeroed right in.

[BillM16]

Perhaps Rule 41 could include something like:

If raise is declared when not facing a bet, it is ruled a bet and all other rules apply.

[jim.eckerson@gmail.com]

Thank you for the responses.

I totally agree with the lesser amount bet and the potential announcement of "call" when nothing has been bet, that it is a check.

And, if anybody knows, would this be the same ruling under the WSOP Rules??

I appreciate the time you all have taken to clarify this    

[Brian Vickers]

Was playing heads up Omaha with my wife the other night at the kitchen table and she kept saying "raise" when she was first to bet instead of "bet;" people just get mixed up on terminology when they are new to the game but by putting out the 500 and/or saying 500 I don't think there is anything unclear in this case.  It's like if someone makes an initial bet and the next player says "re-raise," and puts in a raise amount... they weren't "re" raising anything since it's the initial raise but the amount and action instantly becomes clear.

[Nick C]

Brian,
I know it's easy to do but..you're confusing me again. If a player puts 500 in and the next player says "raise" thinking they're calling...they're in trouble. We need to teach new players, and some that are not so new, that saying raise instead of call, could cost someone more chips than they wanted to invest. Bet and raise are as different as yes and no, or black and white, or any other analogy we can mention. Players need to get it right.

[Spence]

For instance, 100/200 blinds, first 2 players to act check. 3rd to act announces a raise and says 500.
Is the bet amount 500 or 700??  [/b]

we always enforced calling the total of the bet.  I guess that could mean the lesser number as was mentioned by Nick.  If someone says "500" and it is a legitimate bet in turn, that fulfills the minimum raising rules, the new total bet facing the next player is 500.