2015 Summit Suggestions: FCOTD, AA, Verbals, Action OOT, Undercalls, etc.

[Nick C]

Mike,

 Any chance we can get a heads up on possible changes to some of the current TDA Rules? The great majority of members are unable to attend, but I believe it would be a good idea to at least listen to what they have to say.

 In 2013 TDA # 29 was the big talked about addition (At Your Seat)...what's the verdict on that one? Last I heard, it was not going to be used at the WSOP.
 In 2011 Current TDA # 46 Accepted Action was introduced   That, too proved to be a most controversial addition.

 Any chance of changing these, or eliminating them? What better way to get feedback than the TDA Forum?

 My vote for needed changes: TDA # 29 At Your Seat, #46 Accepted Action, and #37 Verbal Bet Declarations / Acting In Turn / Under-calls Both A & B.
I really feel these need some work before we entertain any idea about introducing another unpopular "new rule."

[Brian Vickers]

I was squarely against the "at your seat" change at the summit, but once I implemented it I found it to be a major improvement in keeping players from walking around between hands or dealers slowing down the last card to the button so a player could get in their chair in time.  I hope it stays and I hope more TDs adopt it in their rooms.

[Nick C]

Brian,

 That's fine, use it as one of your "house rules" but do you know if the WPT or the WSOP has adopted it? Last I heard, they were not.

[chet]

Nick:

I am confused (so what's new 'bout that?)

In the past you were ranting (may be commenting is a better word) about the major venues that don't adopt TDA Rules.  Now you appear to be taking the opposite tack and saying that unless the major venues adopt a particular rule, the TDA should get rid of that rule. 

Which side are you on?

and by the way, I agree with Brian with the "at your seat" rule and for the reasons he stated.

Chet

[Nick C]

Chet, happy new year!

 What I'm trying to do is get the TDA rules to become the standard rules that card rooms (worldwide) will adopt. There are serious issues that need to be addressed before we introduce another "new" controversial rule  in 2015.

 In the past, any player that was not in their seat  (or within earshot) when the final card was dealt on the initial deal, had a dead hand. Common sense, if you ask me. I don't know of anyone that got trampled in the last 50 years, or so...that would warrant a "new rule" to prevent players from running through the casino to look at their hand!

 I don't like the rule, and you do. That's okay. I just don't see it as a "RULE." I think the casino has their own set of rules that govern the actions of all patrons.

 If you'd like to continue our conversation, we can bore each other further by sending a private message.

[Brian Vickers]

The intent of the rule was threefold:

A) To prevent the possibility that a player who is making his way back to the table would see a live player's hand, sit down in his seat and then be able to play his hand still.  This happens when a player in early position (who would also have been dealt his card(s) first starts to look  at his hand right away, then the player who is in later position walks behind him, sits down, and has a live hand after having gained that info.  Player at the table must protect his hand from being seen by other players table, but when that other player can be standing right behind you it may become an unfair situation.

B) To keep players from sweating action at other tables in between hands at their own table.  They don't have that buffer of knowing that the cards are being dealt and they have several second buffer from first card until last card to get back in their seat.  Keeping players in their seats helps keep tournaments under control.  People know that they can't wait til 0:00 left on clock and start running back.  They know there is no point to running because they see the cards in the air and know there's no chance to get there in time.

C) To stop that situation that we've all seen dealers do where the player is rushing back and they slooooow doooooown theeeeiiirrr piiitccch to give that player a chance to sit down in time.  Some dealers feel like a jerk if they keep dealing their same speed when a player is yelling "I'm almost there" and some players give dealers flack for not slowing down.  This can slow the table down and/or cause animosity between dealer and player(s).  I've found that the dealers won't ever wait to deal the first card once we made that change.

[Brian Vickers]

Brian,

 That's fine, use it as one of your "house rules" but do you know if the WPT or the WSOP has adopted it? Last I heard, they were not.

Not a house rule, it's TDA...

[Nick C]

Over 1800 members and that's the response I'd be more pissed, if a dealer dealt me in and then told me I could not play my hand because I wasn't seated when the first card was dealt.

 Ridiculous!

[chet]

Nick:  It is no more ridiculous than if the same thing happens when the last card is dealt. 

The rule is there for a number of reasons, others have already stated.  You (and others) may not like it, but it is a TDA Rule and until changed should be given consideration as such.

Personally, I like the rule one reason being that it helps prevent delays to the game.  If you can't be at your seat when the dealing starts too damn bad, I will NOT hold up the game because you are tardy.  The reason for being tardy doesn't matter.  You are NOT going to get any support from me on this one.

Chet

[Nick C]

Chet, really, so what's new?    Can anyone tell me if the WSOP or the WPT use this rule? I asked this simple question a couple times with no reply. I find that strange, especially since we have TDA members affiliated with these tournaments on the board of directors. Furthermore, any time a rule calls for a change in simple time tested dealer procedures I will speak up.

[Tristan]

It was used at the PCA, and there were no major issues that I saw.  Players were at their seats in a timely fashion!

[chet]

Nick:  How do you address the dealer that slows down, looks around for a missing player or pauses dealing because a "good customer" is late coming to his/her seat?  I used to see that happening all the time.  This rule change eliminated that problem.

Sorry, but just because something has "always been done that way", just isn't a good enough reason not to make a change in my opinioin.

Chet

[Nick C]

Chet:
 All of your reasoning looks good on paper, however, the big difference between the way it used to be (and should remain) is when the last card was dealt to the button, and the seat was empty, all we had to do was reach out and kill the hand. Now dealers have to arm wrestle with the guy that sat down before he even received his first card! When this rule was first introduced, I thought it might be best to deal the "dead" hand into the center, and continue dealing the "proper card" to the other players. At least then, the player was unable to look at his pocket aces!

 I was told; that was not the procedure that would be used. I immediately went to the set of Dealer Procedures that I wrote, and added what I thought were possible options. Before anyone explained exactly how this "new rule" was to be carried out...I heard that the WSOP was not going to adopt it! 

Stud could be even more complex, with the "forced bring-in."

 If you like it, that's fine... I don't!  I have every right to voice my opinion, and my opinion is supported by the reasons I've listed. I have never seen a dealer kill the hand of an absent player until the final card was dealt on the initial deal...that's because there is no card room within a 200 mile radius that adopted it! 

[Brian Vickers]

Hollywood Penn National adopted it, which may be within 200 miles, but you are right that a number of rooms did not.  If you review the 2013 Summit tapes you will see me arguing vehemently against this proposed change on the mic, yet after having done it for one week in practice I am now one of the biggest supporters of that rule change.  It was actually one of the biggest tournament improvements I've seen after a summit.  Only rule I've liked more is the 4-card flop rule

So TDs out there, please take it from me, this rule change is great, please instill it. 

[Nick C]

Brian:

 Do you at least understand my concerns? Being an instructor requires more information to pass along to my students. How would you feel about dealing the absent players cards to the center of the table, as I suggested?

 It is not my intention to keep all rules the way they used to be, but I have a problem with any change that is not accepted by the majority. This particular change effects dealer procedures, and that's my main concern.

 I'm glad the rule works for you, I just find it hard to believe players accept it without complaint.