dead hand

[WSOPMcGee]

I agree with both of you when you say we are trying to protect players from dealer error. However, there are rules in place that help prevent dealers from making these errors. When a player leaves their (her) hand unprotected, it is the reflex reaction of a good dealer to kill the hand immediately. Players have a responsibility to protect their own hands (poker 101). They must also have enough common sense to properly expose their hands at the showdown to assure that the hand is retrievable, in the event the dealer accidentally misreads the hand and attempts to kill it.

Your opinion of a good dealer and my opinion of a good dealer is this instance is no where close to each other. A good dealer, does not have a "Reflex Reaction" to kill hands IMO. That only leads to me having to figure out why, when, who, and how I can remedy a mistake. I don't like that much and neither do the players.

It may have been poker 101 way back when to protect ones hand (and it still is applicable), however, that is not the state of poker today.

I would have very little trust, or comfort, playing in a tournament that would allow the floor to dig through a muck pile and try to find the cards that a player claimed to have mucked.

I don't believe any of that was being discussed. The question at hand was, what to do when 4 cards where intermingled, not the entire muck pile. My suggestion was to ask Player 1 (UTG) who folded their hand into Player 4's hand what cards they folded vs asking Player 4 what two cards they have. When you do it that way you can have the player say it out loud, thus hopefully giving the table full disclosure and enabling the floor to pull those two exact cards apart from the other two, and then exposing them. Which is very different than having someone whisper to the floor two cards, then looking at an undisclosed hand, pulling two cards away from the other two and not exposing any cards, leaving the uncomfortable possibility of the floor picking the two best cards out of the four for their friend/customer to play.

God that was long winded. 

[Nick C]

Thomas,
 I have a lot of respect for you, and what you do, and I don't envy your position. How many times are you at a table when one of these situations occur? I remember, back in the day, that it was a rare occasion when I actually witnessed one of these screw-ups. I'd have a dealer in the box that may have caused the mistake, and a situation that I had to evaluate with second hand information.

 Players need to protect their hands. There is entirely too many occasions when players release their cards when they shouldn't. My advice is to teach players to keep their hands on their cards when they are all-in and don't have any chips left to protect them. It's very easy to do. I'm sorry but, unless a hand is properly tabled, or 100% identifiable...the hand is dead and like the rule says: there is no redress. How can any poker player that ever read a rule book ever forget that word? The first time I heard it was over 50 years ago, and it's still the only time I"ve ever used it!

 As far as the reflex reaction from my dealers: I hate it when a player folds, and the discarded hand just sits there. Kill that damn hand before he changes his mind and catches me bluffing! Remember, a hand that is protected remains live and a winning hand, that was properly tabled should be the only one that can be pulled from the muck.

 The next thing you know, someone will get the idea to use a discard rack like they do in black jack.

They hit the muck...they're dead!

[Brian Vickers]

Discard rack, you say?  Stack the mucks in the same order so they can be reconstructed?  Sounds perfect Nick, good idea!  JK.

[Nick C]

Oh no!  Brian, please tell me you're kidding, and who is JK?

[Brian Vickers]

Sorry, another abbreviation, I know you love those.  It's Just Kidding.

[Nick C]