PokerTDA
POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS => Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General => Topic started by: BIG AL on July 20, 2014, 06:18:07 AM
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9 players at the table.
UTG position 1 looks at his cards and throws them. Card delayed and mixed with cards of players at the position four. The player in position four is properly protect cards, but that did not help. Action stops, calls the floor. Floor, decides that the player's hand in position four dead. Because the player in position one can not say with certainty that the ticket is dismissed. Player in position four turbulent reacting to the decision. He had two AA and why his hand is dead when he is not guilty for the situation that occurred? Player in position one incurs a penalty of two orbits due to improper rejection card. Do you agree with this distinction?
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The penalty seems a bit harsh to me, without any prior history. Certainly he didn't know seat 4 had AA when he folded his cards.
As for seat 4, he couldn't be "properly" protecting his hand if discards could manage to get mixed in with his hole cards such that it is impossible to tell which cards were his. He must be responsible for protecting his hand better than he was doing.
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I agree with K-Lo. That seems to be a severe penalty. I also think there is some confusion about protected cards.
Cards are not protected with a chip or card protector is on them...those things can help, but occasionally a dealer will still accidentally muck that hand or occasionally cards can, accidentally, get co-mingled with that hand when they are that way.
Protected hands cannot be accidentally mucked or be co-mingled because the player is physically holding their cards in a way that prevents that. A dealer could not accidentally muck my winning hand because I will not let the dealer take it until the pot is pushed.
That's just my thoughts.
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BIG AL,
I agree with both K-Lo and Tristan, assuming the game being played is hold'em. However, I believe in stud, hole cards are considered protected by the "door card" and the other "up cards" that are positioned above them.
Player's must protect their own hands, and player's must discard their folded hands in the direction of the muck, not into another player's hand. One warning should be enough. If that doesn't work, penalties should be enforced.
K-Lo mentioned prior history of the player. If the player does have a history of intentionally trying to foul another player's hand, he might deserve a more severe punishment and possible ejection from the cardroom.
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I always thought this was a dead hand until I became educated in the mystical ways of high level tournament directors.
This exact situation happened to me in the box in 2005. I told the player with the mixed discards that you have a dead hand. Call for floor decision.
The floor came and asked the player to whisper into his ear and tell him what their two cards are. After hearing the description of the cards the TD pulled out two cards from the mixed cards and play proceeded.
Now I'm not advocating you do that. But I would ask the Folding player what two cards they folded. If then inspect the mixed cards to see if they are identifiable. It's not a TDA rule, but it is a WSOP rule to see if an inadvertently mucked hand is identifiable and proceed from there.
If they are identifiable then play on. If not, then dead hand.
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Thomas,
Pulling any card from the muck is unthinkable! I really believe, when rules were introduced that related to mucked cards being 100% identifiable, I don't think they wanted us (the floor) to ask the player what cards he accidently mucked, and then search for them in the discards. The floor came and asked the player to whisper into his ear and tell him what their two cards are. After hearing the description of the cards the TD pulled out two cards from the mixed cards and play proceeded. ::)
A hand, that was properly tabled and then killed by the dealer is the only exception. There are other rules that players must practice to prevent these preventable situations from occurring...protect your own hand is at t5he top of the list.
One other observation. When you were dealing in 2005, I would think the proper procedure would have been for you to call the floor before telling the player he had a dead hand.
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Nick, this actually is in the WSOP rules that the TD can retrieve if they can tell them the exact two cards. I can remember seeing a floor do this on TV at least once (where the girl got her hand accidentally mucked and said she had Aces, but the TD didn't find Aces in the muck). But no, there's nothing in the TDA that would suggest doing this, WSOP has their own rule sheet and doesn't follow TDA guidelines (even though they may coincide most of the time).
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Brian,
I've seen the same video, and others as well. Unfortunately, just because it's the WSOP, that doesn't mean they are right. There is no rule, that I've ever seen, that tells the floor to dig through the muck and try to find the cards, (whispered in the floorpersons ear) that have been mucked...at least not for cards that have never been properly tabled first. How would you like to be waiting for a floorperson to dig through the muck, until the cards your opponent claims he had are found! "Gee sorry Brian, here are the pocket Aces Johnny mucked by mistake"..."You lose!"
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Thomas,
Pulling any card from the muck is unthinkable!
I used to think the same until I realized that tournament is not just adhering to the rules. While we are essentially officials presiding over the tournament, we are also servicing customers and that is a detail that can not be ignored.
One other observation. When you were dealing in 2005, I would think the proper procedure would have been for you to call the floor before telling the player he had a dead hand.
Needless to say, but relevant, I was GREEN. At least in Poker. Being to taught to learn the rules and enforce the rules and run your game works ok in theory. But in reality, call the floor.
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Brian,
I've seen the same video, and others as well. Unfortunately, just because it's the WSOP, that doesn't mean they are right. There is no rule, that I've ever seen, that tells the floor to dig through the muck and try to find the cards, (whispered in the floorpersons ear) that have been mucked...at least not for cards that have never been properly tabled first. How would you like to be waiting for a floorperson to dig through the muck, until the cards your opponent claims he had are found! "Gee sorry Brian, here are the pocket Aces Johnny mucked by mistake"..."You lose!"
I wouldn't like it, and I don't agree with it, but if it is in their rules then it is correct because they are following their rules. I don't think it applies there when a player accidentally mucks their hand, but only if the dealer accidentally mucks a player's hand.
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I don't think it applies there when a player accidentally mucks their hand, but only if the dealer accidentally mucks a player's hand.
Correct. We try to protect the player from dealer errors as much as we can and resolve any issues that may arise to a satisfactory outcome for all. At least that's the goal.
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I agree with both of you when you say we are trying to protect players from dealer error. However, there are rules in place that help prevent dealers from making these errors. When a player leaves their (her) hand unprotected, it is the reflex reaction of a good dealer to kill the hand immediately. Players have a responsibility to protect their own hands (poker 101). They must also have enough common sense to properly expose their hands at the showdown to assure that the hand is retrievable, in the event the dealer accidentally misreads the hand and attempts to kill it.
I would have very little trust, or comfort, playing in a tournament that would allow the floor to dig through a muck pile and try to find the cards that a player claimed to have mucked. Freddie; "Hey Thomas, the dealer accidentally mucked my hand." Thomas: "What did you have, Fred?" Freddie: "Big Slick" Thomas; "Oh yeah, here it is."
I forgot to mention that the board reads: Q-J-10-9-8 rainbow! ;D
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Not going into this argument, but I would like to say that this is the reason I don't like rules that are set into stone. Poker remains interesting in that as many things as you have experienced in the past, there is always something new that comes along. Being creative is sometimes the best solution.
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Tristan,
Lighten up...where's your sense of humor? I thought that was pretty funny, and besides, I'm never looking for an argument with you. Just want you to see things my way...that's all! :D
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;D ;D
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I agree with both of you when you say we are trying to protect players from dealer error. However, there are rules in place that help prevent dealers from making these errors. When a player leaves their (her) hand unprotected, it is the reflex reaction of a good dealer to kill the hand immediately. Players have a responsibility to protect their own hands (poker 101). They must also have enough common sense to properly expose their hands at the showdown to assure that the hand is retrievable, in the event the dealer accidentally misreads the hand and attempts to kill it.
Your opinion of a good dealer and my opinion of a good dealer is this instance is no where close to each other. A good dealer, does not have a "Reflex Reaction" to kill hands IMO. That only leads to me having to figure out why, when, who, and how I can remedy a mistake. I don't like that much and neither do the players.
It may have been poker 101 way back when to protect ones hand (and it still is applicable), however, that is not the state of poker today.
I would have very little trust, or comfort, playing in a tournament that would allow the floor to dig through a muck pile and try to find the cards that a player claimed to have mucked.
I don't believe any of that was being discussed. The question at hand was, what to do when 4 cards where intermingled, not the entire muck pile. My suggestion was to ask Player 1 (UTG) who folded their hand into Player 4's hand what cards they folded vs asking Player 4 what two cards they have. When you do it that way you can have the player say it out loud, thus hopefully giving the table full disclosure and enabling the floor to pull those two exact cards apart from the other two, and then exposing them. Which is very different than having someone whisper to the floor two cards, then looking at an undisclosed hand, pulling two cards away from the other two and not exposing any cards, leaving the uncomfortable possibility of the floor picking the two best cards out of the four for their friend/customer to play.
God that was long winded. :P
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Thomas,
I have a lot of respect for you, and what you do, and I don't envy your position. How many times are you at a table when one of these situations occur? I remember, back in the day, that it was a rare occasion when I actually witnessed one of these screw-ups. I'd have a dealer in the box that may have caused the mistake, and a situation that I had to evaluate with second hand information.
Players need to protect their hands. There is entirely too many occasions when players release their cards when they shouldn't. My advice is to teach players to keep their hands on their cards when they are all-in and don't have any chips left to protect them. It's very easy to do. I'm sorry but, unless a hand is properly tabled, or 100% identifiable...the hand is dead and like the rule says: there is no redress. How can any poker player that ever read a rule book ever forget that word? The first time I heard it was over 50 years ago, and it's still the only time I"ve ever used it! :D
As far as the reflex reaction from my dealers: I hate it when a player folds, and the discarded hand just sits there. Kill that damn hand before he changes his mind and catches me bluffing! Remember, a hand that is protected remains live and a winning hand, that was properly tabled should be the only one that can be pulled from the muck.
The next thing you know, someone will get the idea to use a discard rack like they do in black jack.
They hit the muck...they're dead!
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Discard rack, you say? Stack the mucks in the same order so they can be reconstructed? Sounds perfect Nick, good idea! JK.
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Oh no! Brian, please tell me you're kidding, and who is JK?
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Sorry, another abbreviation, I know you love those. It's Just Kidding.
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:D :D ;D