Author Topic: raise or call? part 2  (Read 4960 times)

The Hitman

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raise or call? part 2
« on: March 03, 2010, 05:19:51 AM »
Hello again,

Before exposing my case, I would like to thank you for all those precious advices you give on that forum.

The situation:
MTT texas hold'em no limit, blinds 50/100.
3 players in the hand
Player A (utg)  raises 325, B calls (cut off), C (button) throws 525 (one 500 chip and one 25 chip) without saying nothing.

I can see that C has no 100 chips, but I can guess he wants to call.
Dealer announces "it's a raise sir, you have to put 650, rule of the 50%", we are in France (we don't apply the rule of minimum raise, a raise is minimum the double of the previous bet).
Player C reply he wanted to call, the floor manager allows him to call.

Do we have to consider it as a raise? Should the player be more explicit on his intention? and should the dealer have checked the stack of this player before announcing?

Thanks again!

Stuart Murray

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Re: raise or call? part 2
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2010, 05:30:59 AM »
dogzy,

I would rule it a call in this Specific situation also.  All of the the rules apply and this could be construed a minimum raise given the 25 chip also being put in, but it would seem fairly obvious he was merely wanting 100s returned as change.  It is very borderline this one but I am gonna let it stand as a call.  If it was a TDA event it is definitely a call as it does not meet the rule 33 standard.

I think sometimes people at tables get carried away with their technical interpretation of the rules rather than viewing it in the the best interests of the game and applying a common sense approach.  I see things like this with players in casinos asking for rulings because of minor infractions along these lines and whilst they are technically correct they have not looked at the situation objectively.

IMO - It's a Call.

Regards
Stuart

MikeB

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Re: raise or call? part 2
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2010, 11:33:36 PM »
Dogzy: In your illustration, I'll assume that Player raised TO 325 total (100 BB plus 225 raise)..... Ultimately, IMO the INTENT of the bet is the most binding factor. If you as TD assess a situation and come to the conclusion that the player intends to just call 325 here, then it's legitimate to rule this a call. But IMO you have to base it on something.

Reason, because if we look strictly at the chip action, we have "multiple chips of mixed denomination", and if we make a judgement based solely on chip action we have a raise here. Reason, multiple chips of mixed denominations are governed by the 50% rule. Since the bet is 325 here (including a 225 raise), the 50% rule will kick in at 325 + (225 X .50) = 438. Since the player has advanced multiple chips of mixed denominations totalling in excess of 438 (he's tossed 525), if we have NOTHING ELSE to go by, then this is a raise, and he's obligated to make a minimum raise to a total of 325 + 225 = 550. The TDA Rule regarding "minimum raise" under 50% is based on the minimum raise under the specific circumstances, which is 225 here.

But you say "I can guess he wants to call.... ", so your judgement is based on something else, his demeanor, gestures, .... something that CLARIFIES his silent action. The best guideline would be a verbal declare of call. Because you don't have that, I think you have to presume a raise here unless the totality of other evidence leads you to conclude that the intent is to call. Your example also goes to the degree of "leniency" a particular TD has in applying strict rules. Like any judge or police officer, TD's range from quite strict to fairly tolerant depending on the issue involved. Some will be very strict on this but lenient on something else, and vice-versa. Personally this is an area where I would probably tend to be a littler stricter just because I want to maintain order in the betting/raising process, so I'd probably call this a raise more often than not, unless the totality of other gestures and utterances indicated a clear intent to call, but I fully understand how a TD who's a littler more lenient on this subject would assess the circumstances and decide it's obvious the guy just wanted to call and rule as such.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 11:47:45 PM by MikeB »

pbrannon

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Re: raise or call? part 2
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2010, 12:43:24 PM »
I agree with Mike. I would also rule this a raise.

Georg

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Re: raise or call? part 2
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2010, 07:59:25 AM »
I would also rule it a raise. The rule is very clear and I do not see why I should go through the trouble of explaining why I bend an easy to understand very specific rule.


Georg

Nick C

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Re: raise or call? part 2
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2010, 08:03:45 AM »
I agree with the majority and would have to rule this a raise. In a perfect situation the dealer recognizes the unclear bet and stops the action before the next player acts.
Nick C

madkiwi9

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Re: raise or call? part 2
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2010, 09:08:06 AM »
Before the start of any of my tournaments i do my little speech, whats happening etc and then my dealers are required to go through some of the basic rules.
These include your really basic rules string betting, showing of cards etc.
Included are slow rolling, single over chip is a call and more than 50% is a raise....

I've found that this little excersie had made a huge difference, both to the players making basic errors being reduced and to the confidence of the dealers!

My 2cents
Russell Miller
Southern Cross Poker