2 cases: Prior Pot Mal-distribution AND excess info revealed during hand

[Guillaume Gleize]

Hello,

Sorry to ask again but I would like to have some more advices about those two cases I included in my last 15:

14-   A hand his starting preflop – A open all-in at 4000 – B C D fold – then someone realize that A should have receive a total of 12000 in a confusing multiport the hand before – all the table agree together with the dealer and player F who should give back 8000 to A (from the previous hand) and didn't already act in the actual hand – the TD ruled that the 8000 will be given to A but that the all-in is still biding (so a 12000 all-in now) – for the history: player E did call the 12000 (the rest fold) and won the pot (player A later complained that he would not have gone all-in if 12000 in front of him) – Your opinion? (This way? No refound? Hand cancelled? The 8000 given after the hand?)

15-    Three player left at flop AQQ – A (with AK) open 3000 – B (with AT) raises 10000 – C (with Q5s) folds and shows his hand (!) – then another player Z (who folded preflop) declare he had a Q too (!) – then player B scream and shows his hand (so AT) and says his bluff can't work anymore because of C and Z informations given to A prematurely – TD ruled that B can take back his raise and play free (and punished players C and Z on the next hand) – Your opinion? (And in general don't you ever cancel some huge money action if the circumstancies dramatically changed during the round like hand shown etc.?)

Please no comments like "This player is an idiot" or "That dealer should be fired" – But strictly ruling advices please - Thank you very much - GG

[Nick C]

Hello Guillaume,

Your Question #14: If you want to go by the "book" or the TDA...you refer to TDA #21 Disputed Pots: The right to dispute a hand ends when a new hand begins. So...I would say it could be too late to go back to the previous hand and adjust anything.

#15 is more complicated. Why would any player fold Q5 with a flop that reads AQQ? Why would another player say that he also folded a queen pre-flop? Based on the information that you've given, I can agree with the decision of the floor. I would also try to educate your players about common courtesy, and proper etiquette that they need to learn. I'm still scratching my head over that fold by Player C!   

[MikeB]

15-    Three player left at flop AQQ – A (with AK) open 3000 – B (with AT) raises 10000 – C (with Q5s) folds and shows his hand (!) – then another player Z (who folded preflop) declare he had a Q too (!) – then player B scream and shows his hand (so AT) and says his bluff can't work anymore because of C and Z informations given to A prematurely – TD ruled that B can take back his raise and play free (and punished players C and Z on the next hand) – Your opinion? (And in general don't you ever cancel some huge money action if the circumstancies dramatically changed during the round like hand shown etc.?)

Please no comments like "This player is an idiot" or "That dealer should be fired" – But strictly ruling advices please - Thank you very much - GG

GG: I understand B's frustration, but it's a bad precedent to stop a hand, or stop betting everytime a difficulty arises. Also B brought alot of this on himself by revealing his downcards, something he should not have done and is penalizable in itself. Especially because B voluntarily chose to expose his hand, I would play this one out. 1) It's 7k to A to call; 2) After the hand, C and Z are penalized at least several hands, and B is warned about card exposure.

[Guillaume Gleize]

Hello guys,

The #14 is quite "simple" in the fact that my TD friend knew the old rule saying it was over (too late) but he wanted to do something on his own risks and responsabilities because everybody did agree with the mistake (dealer + player to give back + player to receive + full table) ... But sadly he received back no reward for that (the receiving player complaining).

Personaly I also would have done something to give back this amount but in 2 other solution possible: Or cancel the hand for "Incorrect stacks amount informations from the start" or let the hand finish THEN give back the amount to the player ... No perfect solution here so we have to be courageous and choose!

The #15 is more important to me: The case really happened (slightly diferently) and actually happen sometime to time and personaly: I HATE TO HAVE A PLAYER ACTING WITH MORE CARD INFORMATIONS THAN THE PREVIOUS PLAYERS IN A BETTING ROUND! Don't you?

[Nick C]

Guillaume:

Sometimes we (as TD's) try to overthink a situation. Stick with the basic fundamental rules of etiquette TDA #58 A penalty may be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending....
TDA #59: No Disclosure: Players are obligated to protect other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore players in a hand or not, may not: #1 Disclose contents of live or folded hands.

Getting back to your question #15. I thought that the floor made the correct decision by allowing Player B to retract his raise because too much information was given to the other players that had not yet acted. Remember, there are times when unusual situations occur and "protecting" the non-offender is the best solution.

What I don't like in these situations; is when we decide to evaluate the contents of the players hands, and try to figure if they should or shouldn't act the way they did. Most of the time, the contents of the players hands should be irrelevant! I questioned why Player C would fold his three queens with two cards yet to come...this is wrong. His exposing the cards is the issue.

Players must abide by the simple rules, and it's your duty to see that they do. Whether it's a casino environment, or a house tournament, players can not disclose the content of their hands until showdown. Repeat offenders will lose their welcome to return. I like the way your situation was handled.

[WSOPMcGee]

#14 - Give the player the 8000, but do not enforce the all-in. Enforce a bet of 4000.

#15 - Do not let Play B retract his raise. Player A did not know what Player B has until Player B exposed his own cards. Penalty to Player C for exposing and to Other Player for commenting and disclosing the possible contents of his folded hand.

[Nick C]

Thomas: If Player A had called before any cards were exposed, I'd agree with you. I'm trying to be objective and not consider the contents of the hands involved.

[WSOPMcGee]

Thomas: If Player A had called before any cards were exposed, I'd agree with you. I'm trying to be objective and not consider the contents of the hands involved.

Nick I'm not considering the contents of anybody's hand. Players have to be accountable for their actions. No one told Player B to expose his own cards with action pending.

Just because Player C exposes his cards and shows a Q while folding and Player D says, "I folded a Q", doesn't mean Player B gets to expose his cards, throw a tantrum and say to the TD "how am I supposed to bluff now?"

Using one of your lines Nick, "You can't be serious?"

[Nick C]

Okay, Thomas...I'll give you one that I heard at the 2011 Summit. "I can live with that!" Just thought that Player B might be up against Player A, Player C, and Player D all in cahoots. After all, Player B is the player with the extra uncalled amount at risk. That's all I've got.