Author Topic: ANZPT All-In Incident: Dealer loses river card into the muck... how to handle?  (Read 8616 times)

BillM16

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First, the KK also had a winning flush draw.

Second, building on Brian's example, the 25 cards remaining in the stub is 96% accurate given the missing mucked river card (25/26).  Adding all 17 mucked cards to the stub would introduce not only the missing river card but also 16 invalid cards.  This is why I opted for simply dealing the next card off the stub.  However, if it is very important to give some chance of the missing river card to be dealt then perhaps the next best option would be to shuffle the muck and have the TD randomly draw a single card to be added to the stub.  Now shuffle the new stub of 26 cards and deal the river.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 02:29:31 PM by BillM16 »

K-Lo

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I just hope we are not agreeing that it is more important to allow one unknown card that has found its way from the stub into muck than it is to keep mucked cards, mucked. Game integrity issues must always take precedence. Digging through the muck or bringing mucked cards back to life should be the ultimate last resort in exceptional situations.

Nick C

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 I've always agreed with Ken on this. I can't imagine a mistake so bad that it would warrant using mucked cards for a reshuffle. One of the contributing factors can be directly linked to procedures used by most dealers. These current methods make it almost impossible to clearly identify the "proper card" when a premature action occurs.

 Keeping the muck separate from the burn cards would be helpful. I've seen a variety of inconsistent table layouts ,i.e., automated shufflers, some on the left, some on the right. I've seen muck cards placed on the same side (or area) as burn cards. Another "pet peeve" is the method used by dealers when dropping the deck stub at the end of the deal. Fanning the stub, from the burn into the muck is the most common, and the most impractical.  The method I prefer, and teach, is simply sliding the cut card from the bottom and drop the stub. Touching the cut card with the ring and middle finger of the left hand, (for right handed dealers). The cut card will practically stick to the fingers and separate the deck from the cut card with ease.  Drop the cut card above and between the table tray and you won't have to "fish" for it for the next deal. That's it...no massaging the cards or pushing the cards together in a rapid movement that can only create the possibility of exposure. When done properly, the muck, burncards and deck stub are clearly identifiable and the cut card is in the desired position for the next deal.

Brian Vickers

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I actually surprised by the aversion to using the muck pile in this instance when the TDA recommended rules say to do so.

We use mucked cards in other games like triple draw, so it's not like this is a completely foreign concept to the game of poker.

Also, Bill, I had heard conflicting reports on whether or not KK had a 4-flush or not, but I'm hearing more people tell me he did now, so the 24% probability is more accurate, thank you.

Nick C

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Yeah Mike, I have some thoughts...the first one is keep the calculators away from the game. If the screw-up occurs more than once in any cardroom, there should be an investigation. I mentioned, a couple times on this thread, the equity of each players hand. My thoughts are: never use the muck and don't waste any time if one player has an unbeatable hand. Remember, we are talking about two players with no chance for any more possible betting.

 Too scientific. Next, we'll have charts hanging on the walls, comparing odds on three of a kind, outdrawing the made straight. I don't like it and I sure hope we don't burn-up any time on this at the Summit. Let's beat it to death right now! ;D

Lado

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At my table, after I deal the last card, I drop the cut card, place the deck flat without exposing the bottom card, fast but gently collect the burnt cards to the left of the deck, then grab the muck at the same speed and time and bring it to the right of the deck. This way all three burnt and all muck cards are clearly visiable and they aren't touching anything but the felt. Nick is 100% right, redicoulus ruling.

BillM16

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We can be certain about these points:

  • the mucked river card is unidentifiable and cannot be retrieved with certainty
  • the other mucked cards have already been seen and discarded by other players
  • the stub cards have not yet been seen by anyone
  • RROP says:  a boxed card will be treated as a meaningless scrap of paper.  A card being treated as a scrap of paper will be replaced by the next card below it in the deck.

It seems both rational and efficient to treat the mucked river as a meaningless scrap of paper and simply deal the next card as the replacement.  It is very consistent with the commonsense principles that we follow in RROP.

Nick C

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BillM16:

 You are correct about the consistent commonsense principals that we follow in RROP...However, Robert's Rules are for cash games and that's where the problems come in. I remember (years ago) taking the second or third card from the bottom of the stub and using it as the replacement card. These simple solutions work well when the customers are aware. The error was so rare that we never had any problems.