Great questions Steve... see answers below. Be aware that you might get a slightly different take on some of these depending on who you ask....
We are a bit unclear of the "Asking to See a Hand" rule!
I will list the 2011 version and then the most recent 2013 version and then ask some questions that we request answers for clarification!
Here is 2011 Rule 14:
14: Asking to See a Hand.
Except where house policy requires a hand to be shown or provides an express right to see a hand on request, asking to see a hand is a privilege granted at TD’s discretion to protect the integrity of the game (suspicion of invalid hand, collusion, etc). This privilege is not to be abused. A player who mucks his hand face down at showdown without fully tabling it loses any rights he may have to ask to see any hand.
And here is 2013 Rule 18:
18: Asking to See a Hand
Players not still in possession of their cards at showdown, or who have mucked face down without tabling their cards, lose any rights or privileges they may have to ask to see any hand.
Questions:
1) The lead sentence regarding "integrity of the game" was removed from 2011 to 2013. I know we are still concerned about such integrity, and that originally such a rule was written to protect the integrity and not to provide the player information, but are we now conceding and allowing players a chance to see a hand if they have "paid" for it?
To start off, the BEST way to look at all of these related topics, IMO, is the following... this is as full a take as I can give you including both the written rules coming out of Summit VI, and the highly-agreed-upon but unwritten rules based on discussions at the Summit which you can view on the videos...
A: The only hand that VIRTUALLY ALL ATTENDING TDA DELEGATES AGREED that a player has an ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO SEE, 100% of the time they ask, is the hand of the last aggressor on the final street (if there was betting on the final street). This is an inalienable right, I can ask 100 hands in a row and it will be shown every time. The only stipulation is that I must either still retain possession of my cards face down OR have tabled them. Also, this option doesn't apply if it was checked around on the final street.
B: All other requests to see any other hand: 1) are based on house policy and TD discretion for whatever reason (not limited to "integrity of the game") AND 2) Player asking must retain cards or table cards as above.
Some venues will grant every request to see, some will grant them as long as you don't make a nuisance of yourself, some will only grant for integrity of the game, and some won't grant any but A above... so it's house policy.
2) Rule 18 now states 2 conditions that cause a player to "lose any rights or privileges they may have to ask to see any hand" My question is "what rights did they in fact lose." Presumably those lost rights are "the right to see a hand". My point here is that the rules should state explicit rights, not the fact that a player is losing "unstated rights"
They are the rights of A and B as listed above... A is absolute, B is your house policy, whatever it is...
3) Is this then true: "Any player still in possession of their cards at showdown may ask to see a hand" ?
They may ask... but that doesn't mean the house must show... if the house policy is to honor the request under the circumstances, then they will see the hand, otherwise no.... the only hand EVERYONE is in agreement on is A above. Beyond that it's a fairly wide range of house policies, I won't list them all. Perhaps the way the rule reads might lead some to conclude that if a player does retain his/her cards that they have a blanket "right" to see any hand, and that just isn't the case... there was so much resistance to putting in the language about
house policy, i.e. "loses any right they may have
under house policy to ask to see a hand" that it was left out, but that is in fact implied "any right they may have", well where do those rights come from? answer: house policy at this time.... except in the case of the last aggressive hand on the final betting street: every caller has an inalienable right to ask to see that hand (per verbal discussions at Summit VI, see "A" case above).
4) And is it also true: "Any player who mucks face up at showdown may ask to see a hand" ?
Again, they may ask, doesn't mean the house must honor it except in A above... and persuant to specific policy for other situations as in B above.... But yes, by tabling their hand they have fufilled the stipulation and may ask.
5) And if those players do ask, is the TD obliged to honor those requests?
Only in A above, otherwise it's up to the house policy for other situations. I would say the majority of houses fall into one of (3) camps for other situations? 1) Honor all requests everytime; 2) Honor requests as long as the requestor isn't needling the opponent, or asking incessantly; 3) Honor only to protect integrity of the game. Can't really say what the percentage distribution is... somehow I think #1 is the minority, and maybe 2 and 3 are about equal with the remainder?
6) Or, is there a point where the TD can rule that the player is abusing the rule?
Absolutely there is, IF that's your house policy.... except you really should honor cases of A everytime.... as Jack Effel said for the vast majority at Summit VI "that's information the player paid for"... BUT, they must still retain their cards or have tabled their hand before mucking.
That seems to be a tough one, since some would insist that if one "pays" on that last bet that (s)he has paid to see the opponents' cards.
That's what everyone agrees to... NOW, the only reason that wasn't written into the rule, was that it might leave the impression that's the ONLY time you can ask to see, and that's not the case... you can ask anytime you retain your hand, or table it, but granting your request in anything but "A" cases is house policy.
7) Rule 16: Showdown Order contains this statement: Except where house policy requires a hand to be tabled during the order of show, a player may elect to muck his hand face down. So...at what point must the asker make the request to see a hand? Does it have to be in turn? Presumably not since the bet/muck hand would have already mucked!
This gets complicated, because there's another issue of whether the hand is live or not if shown by request... But the short answer is you can ask anytime, doesn't have to be in order, you just have to have your cards or have tabled them. NOW... as to whether the hand becomes live, there are two camps:
1. The classic RRoP camp... if the hand is in the possession of the opponent, it's always live if someone asks to see it. Otherwise, if it's been mucked, then it's live if the best of the reamining hands asks to see it, otherwise dead.
2. The nouveau camp... all cards are live if tabled by whatever means under whatever circumstances.
Again, I can't give you the exact % distribution, probably more or less even.
Question 2 above talks about the two conditions that cause a player to lose rights! Again, what are the stated rights that a player has and under what conditions? That is, is it true that only players satisfying questions 3 and 4 above may ask? Or are there other players that could ask?
The only players that can ask are players who 1) make it to showdown and 2) retain cards or table them as described. Whether their request must be honored, or is house discretion is covered above I think
9) Similar to 8, is it true that a player no longer in the hand who did not make it to showdown cannot ask?
Yes..... I mean you probably don't say never here, because there might be a compelling integrity issue, but that would be it... not under normal circumstances do they have any right at all because TDA makes clear they have to have made it to showdown and either tabled or retain their hand
10) Can any player still ask the TD to privately inspect a player's hand if collusion or an irregularity is suspected?
Yes... that gets to your question in 9 also.
Thanks for the great question, please follow up with anything that isn't clear!