How Does "Asking to See a Hand" work under 2013 Rules revisited

[Steven]

We are a bit unclear of the  "Asking to See a Hand" rule!

I will list the 2011 version and then the most recent 2013 version and then ask some questions that we request answers for clarification!


Here is 2011 Rule 14:

14: Asking to See a Hand.

Except where house policy requires a hand to be shown or provides an express right to see a hand on request, asking to see a hand is a privilege granted at TD’s discretion to protect the integrity of the game (suspicion of invalid hand, collusion, etc). This privilege is not to be abused. A player who mucks his hand face down at showdown without fully tabling it loses any rights he may have to ask to see any hand.

And here is 2013 Rule 18:

18: Asking to See a Hand

Players not still in possession of their cards at showdown, or who have mucked face down without tabling their cards, lose any rights or privileges they may have to ask to see any hand.

Questions:

1) The lead sentence regarding "integrity of the game" was removed from 2011 to 2013. I know we are still concerned about such integrity, and that originally  such a rule was written to protect the integrity and not to provide the player information, but are we now conceding and allowing players a chance to see a hand if they have "paid" for it?

2) Rule 18 now states 2 conditions that cause a player to "lose any rights or privileges they may have to ask to see any hand"   My question is "what rights did they in fact lose."  Presumably those lost rights are "the right to see a hand".   My point here is that the rules should state explicit rights,   not the fact that a player is losing "unstated rights"

3) Is this then true: "Any player still in possession of their cards at showdown may ask to see a hand" ?

4) And is it also true: "Any player who mucks face up at showdown may ask to see a hand" ?

5) And if those players do ask, is the TD obliged to honor those requests?

6) Or, is there a point where the TD can rule that the player is abusing the rule?  That seems to be a tough one, since some would insist that if one "pays" on that last bet that (s)he has paid to see the opponents' cards.

7) Rule 16: Showdown Order contains this statement:  Except where house policy requires a hand to be tabled during the order of show, a player may elect to muck his hand face down. So...at what point must the asker make the request to see a hand? Does it have to be in turn? Presumably not since the bet/muck hand would have already mucked!

Question 2 above talks about the two conditions that cause a player to lose rights! Again, what are the stated rights that a player has and under what conditions? That is, is it true that only players satisfying questions 3 and 4 above may ask? Or are there other players that could ask?

9) Similar to 8, is it true that a player no longer in the hand who did not make it to showdown cannot ask?

10) Can any player still ask the TD to privately inspect a player's hand if collusion or an irregularity is suspected?

Thank you for any response you may provide!

[MikeB]

Great questions Steve... see answers below. Be aware that you might get a slightly different take on some of these depending on who you ask....

We are a bit unclear of the  "Asking to See a Hand" rule!

I will list the 2011 version and then the most recent 2013 version and then ask some questions that we request answers for clarification!

Here is 2011 Rule 14:

14: Asking to See a Hand.

Except where house policy requires a hand to be shown or provides an express right to see a hand on request, asking to see a hand is a privilege granted at TD’s discretion to protect the integrity of the game (suspicion of invalid hand, collusion, etc). This privilege is not to be abused. A player who mucks his hand face down at showdown without fully tabling it loses any rights he may have to ask to see any hand.

And here is 2013 Rule 18:

18: Asking to See a Hand

Players not still in possession of their cards at showdown, or who have mucked face down without tabling their cards, lose any rights or privileges they may have to ask to see any hand.

Questions:

1) The lead sentence regarding "integrity of the game" was removed from 2011 to 2013. I know we are still concerned about such integrity, and that originally  such a rule was written to protect the integrity and not to provide the player information, but are we now conceding and allowing players a chance to see a hand if they have "paid" for it?

To start off, the BEST way to look at all of these related topics, IMO, is the following... this is as full a take as I can give you including both the written rules coming out of Summit VI, and the highly-agreed-upon but unwritten rules based on discussions at the Summit which you can view on the videos...

A: The only hand that VIRTUALLY ALL ATTENDING TDA DELEGATES AGREED that a player has an ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO SEE, 100% of the time they ask, is the hand of the last aggressor on the final street (if there was betting on the final street). This is an inalienable right, I can ask 100 hands in a row and it will be shown every time. The only stipulation is that I must either still retain possession of my cards face down OR have tabled them. Also, this option doesn't apply if it was checked around on the final street.

B: All other requests to see any other hand: 1) are based on house policy and TD discretion for whatever reason (not limited to "integrity of the game") AND 2) Player asking must retain cards or table cards as above.

Some venues will grant every request to see, some will grant them as long as you don't make a nuisance of yourself, some will only grant for integrity of the game, and some won't grant any but A above... so it's house policy.

2) Rule 18 now states 2 conditions that cause a player to "lose any rights or privileges they may have to ask to see any hand"   My question is "what rights did they in fact lose."  Presumably those lost rights are "the right to see a hand".   My point here is that the rules should state explicit rights,   not the fact that a player is losing "unstated rights"

They are the rights of A and B as listed above... A is absolute, B is your house policy, whatever it is...

3) Is this then true: "Any player still in possession of their cards at showdown may ask to see a hand" ?

They may ask... but that doesn't mean the house must show... if the house policy is to honor the request under the circumstances, then they will see the hand, otherwise no.... the only hand EVERYONE is in agreement on is A above. Beyond that it's a fairly wide range of house policies, I won't list them all. Perhaps the way the rule reads might lead some to conclude that if a player does retain his/her cards that they have a blanket "right" to see any hand, and that just isn't the case... there was so much resistance to putting in the language about house policy, i.e. "loses any right they may have under house policy to ask to see a hand" that it was left out, but that is in fact implied "any right they may have", well where do those rights come from? answer: house policy at this time.... except in the case of the last aggressive hand on the final betting street: every caller has an inalienable right to ask to see that hand (per verbal discussions at Summit VI, see "A" case above).

4) And is it also true: "Any player who mucks face up at showdown may ask to see a hand" ?

Again, they may ask, doesn't mean the house must honor it except in A above... and persuant to specific policy for other situations as in B above.... But yes, by tabling their hand they have fufilled the stipulation and may ask.

5) And if those players do ask, is the TD obliged to honor those requests?

Only in A above, otherwise it's up to the house policy for other situations. I would say the majority of houses fall into one of (3) camps for other situations? 1) Honor all requests everytime; 2) Honor requests as long as the requestor isn't needling the opponent, or asking incessantly; 3) Honor only to protect integrity of the game. Can't really say what the percentage distribution is... somehow I think #1 is the minority, and maybe 2 and 3 are about equal with the remainder?

6) Or, is there a point where the TD can rule that the player is abusing the rule?

Absolutely there is, IF that's your house policy.... except you really should honor cases of A everytime.... as Jack Effel said for the vast majority at Summit VI "that's information the player paid for"... BUT, they must still retain their cards or have tabled their hand before mucking.

That seems to be a tough one, since some would insist that if one "pays" on that last bet that (s)he has paid to see the opponents' cards.

That's what everyone agrees to... NOW, the only reason that wasn't written into the rule, was that it might leave the impression that's the ONLY time you can ask to see, and that's not the case... you can ask anytime you retain your hand, or table it, but granting your request in anything but "A" cases is house policy.

7) Rule 16: Showdown Order contains this statement:  Except where house policy requires a hand to be tabled during the order of show, a player may elect to muck his hand face down. So...at what point must the asker make the request to see a hand? Does it have to be in turn? Presumably not since the bet/muck hand would have already mucked!

This gets complicated, because there's another issue of whether the hand is live or not if shown by request... But the short answer is you can ask anytime, doesn't have to be in order, you just have to have your cards or have tabled them. NOW... as to whether the hand becomes live, there are two camps:
1. The classic RRoP camp... if the hand is in the possession of the opponent, it's always live if someone asks to see it. Otherwise, if it's been mucked, then it's live if the best of the reamining hands asks to see it, otherwise dead.
2. The nouveau camp... all cards are live if tabled by whatever means under whatever circumstances.

Again, I can't give you the exact % distribution, probably more or less even.

Question 2 above talks about the two conditions that cause a player to lose rights! Again, what are the stated rights that a player has and under what conditions? That is, is it true that only players satisfying questions 3 and 4 above may ask? Or are there other players that could ask?

The only players that can ask are players who 1) make it to showdown and 2) retain cards or table them as described. Whether their request must be honored, or is house discretion is covered above I think

9) Similar to 8, is it true that a player no longer in the hand who did not make it to showdown cannot ask?

Yes..... I mean you probably don't say never here, because there might be a compelling integrity issue, but that would be it... not under normal circumstances do they have any right at all because TDA makes clear they have to have made it to showdown and either tabled or retain their hand

10) Can any player still ask the TD to privately inspect a player's hand if collusion or an irregularity is suspected?

Yes... that gets to your question in 9 also.

Thanks for the great question, please follow up with anything that isn't clear!

[K-Lo]

I agree with Mike's points, although some color other than red would have been easier to read when printed in a purple box. 

The underlying point is that the rules on asking to see a hand, at least if you follow TDA rules, have been in flux.  Traditionally, a broad rule was instituted where anyone who was dealt in could ask to see the hand of anyone that was eligible to win a portion of the pot.  The TDA went to the other extreme by only allowing requests at the TD's discretion when collusion might be an issue -- which practically meant no one got to see mucked hands at showdown.  The current rules place us back somewhere in the middle -- allow the request some of the time -- the test being that the person asking to see a hand must have cards: the "bargain" is essentially if you don't allow anyone to see your hand, then you shouldn't ask to see someone else's hand.

Personally, I like the idea of not being at either extreme, although I'm not sure the line was really drawn in the right place... is it somewhat arbitrary? If I am the type of player who likes to ask to see cards, I could always make an arrangement with one or two other players: if I want to see the hand but don't have cards, perhaps I can get the other player who does have cards (but who might not otherwise care to see a mucked hand) to ask on my behalf. In any event, I agree that the TD can and should step in if it appear that the rule is being abused.

[MikeB]

I agree with Mike's points, although some color other than red would have been easier to read when printed in a purple box. 

That is a bad color scheme... will re-edit later today.

[chet]

Mike:

IMO the color scheme is OK, what is needed is a change in the font size to the standard used for posts and not the smaller font used when something is quoted.  Maybe there is a way to eliminate quoted sections from coming forward in the smaller type?

Chet

[Nick C]

Hello Steven,

 After reading all of the different scenarios that have been covered on this thread, I looked to several others on this forum. The controversy will go on and on because house rules vary greatly from casino to casino. Whatever you decide, be consistent.

 You will notice that the first line of the TDA rule allows us the right to set just about any ruling we want: "Except where house policy requires a hand be shown...."

 I'm with (the minority) that believes...any player dealt in the hand in question, has a right to see a called hand. If the would be winner asks to see an unexposed surrendered hand, both hands are live. That's it.

Mike wrote: "The only hand that VIRTUALLY ALL ATTENDING TDA DELEGATES AGREED that a player has an ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO SEE, 100% of the time they ask, is the hand of the last aggressor on the final street (if there was betting on the final street). This is an inalienable right, I can ask 100 hands in a row and it will be shown every time. The only stipulation is that I must either still retain possession of my cards face down OR have tabled them. Also, this option doesn't apply if it was checked around on the final street."

I'm not sure I understand why the first player that checked on the final betting round is excluded? 
Mike's statement above also would not allow a "bluffing" player to bet...get called, and muck. I'm as confused as you are on this one, Steven. I would allow the muck, but if another player asks to see the hand, it must be exposed.

My house rule is very simple and easy to understand...If you bet, and are called, or you are in for all bets you will have to show your hand if requested.

[MikeB]

Mike wrote: "The only hand that VIRTUALLY ALL ATTENDING TDA DELEGATES AGREED that a player has an ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO SEE, 100% of the time they ask, is the hand of the last aggressor on the final street (if there was betting on the final street). This is an inalienable right, I can ask 100 hands in a row and it will be shown every time. The only stipulation is that I must either still retain possession of my cards face down OR have tabled them. Also, this option doesn't apply if it was checked around on the final street."

I'm not sure I understand why the first player that checked on the final betting round is excluded?  

Okay, to clarify the above, only one of two things is possible on every showdown.

1. There was betting on the final street... in which case every caller of the last aggressive bettor has the absolute inalienable right to ask to see the hand of the last aggressor, and it must be shown. This does not mean the hand is shown necessarily even if nobody asks to see it (as in a bet muck)... if the last aggressor bet-mucks face down, and nobody asks to see the hand, it can be pushed into the muckpile face down.

2. There was no betting on the final street... in which case the above does not apply and the only remaining conditions for granting a request to see any hand are as provided in house policy.

Mike's statement above also would not allow a "bluffing" player to bet...get called, and muck. I'm as confused as you are on this one, Steven. I would allow the muck, but if another player asks to see the hand, it must be exposed.

see 1. above.

My house rule is very simple and easy to understand...If you bet, and are called, or you are in for all bets you will have to show your hand if requested.

Well it's not quite so simple... as I understand your house rule...

A. Any player reaching the showdown can ask to see any hand and that hand must be shown, 100% of the time... there are 100 showdowns, 5 players at each showdown, each of those 5 players can ask to see every other hand and all those hands must be shown everytime without exception, yes? ... there's no "cutoff" for needling or what some might call "nuisance" requests, correct?...

THEN,
B. If the hand is still in possession of the player is it live?

C. Lastly, as you wrote above, if the hand is not still in possession of the player, it is live only if the would-be winner asks to see it, otherwise it's dead...

So none of these house rules are so "simple", there are always twists to them...
****************
So to re-cap house policies...in case of A, there are venues like Nick's that grant every request, other venues that will grant the requests up to the point they become a nuisance, then refuse them... still other venues which will grant the request only "to protect integrity of the game"...

I think every venue that permits a hand to be shown is in agreement with B.

Then on C, some venues make a discarded non-tabled hand live everytime while others, as Nick describes his rule, declare the hand live only if the would-be winner asks to see it.

****************
NOW... what is the TDA Rule... as Chet notes on another thread, TDA Rules supplement the house rules... the TDA supplement is that the only player who can ask to see a hand under whatever the house rules are, is a player who has either tabled their hand at showdown or still retains their cards face down at time of request. Please note that some misconstrue this rule to mean, if I ask to see your cards and the request is granted, I must show mine... that's not absolute reading of the rule... it just says that if I ask to see, I must be in a position to reveal my hand if there is a counter-request to see my hand, and that counter-request is granted, i.e. I can't bury my cards in the muck then ask to see yours when you would have no chance to see mine on counter-request.

[Nick C]

To all,

 I thought I'd tell Steven what worked for me for many years. I know others do not agree with me. I do believe that my rules are in compliance with the TDA.

 Mike, I would never allow any player to abuse his right to see a called hand.   i.e. A Player that tells the dealer, he wants to see every hand Johnny is in, (in advance, for example)...this I would not allow. Most hands play out with little problems. I would say that once the better hand is shown, the losing player's surrender their hands and the next hand begins... that's fine, however, I believe the best way to protect the integrity of the game, is to let all player's know that their called hands may be exposed. I am also not in favor of a bet-muck or a check-muck in any tournament.

 A better question is: when and why did the TDA decide the old standard rules be changed? Or was the TDA rule always different from Robert's Rules? Just curious.

 Chet, I believe I'm still in compliance with the TDA rules, correct?

[MikeB]

To all,

 I thought I'd tell Steven what worked for me for many years. I know others do not agree with me. I do believe that my rules are in compliance with the TDA.

Virtually every house rule complies with TDA, as long as it limits requests to see hands to players who made it to showdown and have either retained their cards face down, OR tabled then mucked them (TDA Rule 18). As Chet pointed out, the TDA rules supplement the house rules.

Mike, I would never allow any player to abuse his right to see a called hand.  

Okay then, so to clarify, you are not in the camp of every hand must be shown on request every time... but only if "the privilege isn't abused"... these are important distinctions.

I would say that once the better hand is shown, the losing player's surrender their hands and the next hand begins... that's fine, however, I believe the best way to protect the integrity of the game, is to let all player's know that their called hands may be exposed. I am also not in favor of a bet-muck or a check-muck in any tournament.

you're not "in favor" of bet-muck... but do you have any specific rule against it, i.e. you require the hand be shown or penalize a player who does it or?

A better question is: when and why did the TDA decide the old standard rules be changed?

Well what is the "old standard rule" ? Here's RRoP Showdown, Para. 5:

5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

IF that is your house rule, the only exception the TDA makes to it is change "any player who has been dealt in" TO  "any player who is in possession of his cards at showdown or who has tabled them"...

BUT, that isn't everyone's house rule....

Or was the TDA rule always different from Robert's Rules? Just curious.

The rule limiting requests to see only to players who retain cards at showdown was in place from 2011 on...

Chet, I believe I'm still in compliance with the TDA rules, correct?

IMO you're definitely in compliance, as long as you limit requests to see hands to only players who either retain their cards at showdown or who have tabled and then mucked (TDA Rule 18). EVERYTHING beyond that is house policy.

[Nick C]

Hello Mike,

 Thanks again for taking the time to answer our questions.

 First I'd like to say that I believe a separate set of rules should exist for cash games and tournaments. I'd like to see all cards tabled at showdown for tournament poker...but that's just my feeling and not a rule. Perhaps that is why we have so many different opinions. Comparing our TDA rules with Robert's Rules might not be the best idea, for us.

 I'll quote one of your questions: "Okay, then, so to clarify, you are not in the camp of every hand must be shown on request every time... but only if "the privilege isn't abused"... these are important distinctions."
My answer: That is absolutely correct. I've given a few examples of what I consider abuse of the rule, and I would not hesitate to take the privilege away from any player that I feel is "trying to embarrass" or "antagonize" or "bust chops..."

 You said: "you're not "in favor" of bet-muck... but do you have any specific rule against it, i.e. you require the hand be shown or penalize a player who does it or?
I am not in favor of bet-muck in tournament play. My reasoning is because I can't think of an easier way to dump chips! I will repeat: I am not in favor of bet-muck, or check-muck or any surrender of the initial bettor's hand in for all bets...this includes a final round that is checked. However, I would allow it if no other player asked to see the mucked hand.

 You wrote:  Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

IF that is your house rule, the only exception the TDA makes to it is change "any player who has been dealt in" TO  "any player who is in possession of his cards at showdown or who has tabled them"...

 The problem I have with the only exception the TDA makes is: How do you only show one or two player's at the table?


 You said:  Any player reaching the showdown can ask to see any hand and that hand must be shown, 100% of the time... there are 100 showdowns, 5 players at each showdown, each of those 5 players can ask to see every other hand and all those hands must be shown everytime without exception, yes? ... there's no "cutoff" for needling or what some might call "nuisance" requests, correct?...

If the proper order of showdown is followed, player's will not be allowed to retain their cards. The first aggressor shows, followed by the next player clockwise. When a player turns his hand, the next player will either surrender their loser or show a better hand. The dealer will then kill the loser and proceed to the next player...there is no option for any player in turn, to decide that he will not show his hand or surrender it. However, once a player surrenders his hand this will not prevent other player's from their right to see his hand, if requested.



 

[MikeB]

You wrote:  Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

IF that is your house rule, the only exception the TDA makes to it is change "any player who has been dealt in" TO  "any player who is in possession of his cards at showdown or who has tabled them"...

 The problem I have with the only exception the TDA makes is: How do you only show one or two player's at the table?

Everyone at the table will see the cards that are shown by request... the TDA just limits who can request in the first place.

If the proper order of showdown is followed, player's will not be allowed to retain their cards. The first aggressor shows, followed by the next player clockwise. When a player turns his hand, the next player will either surrender their loser or show a better hand. The dealer will then kill the loser and proceed to the next player...there is no option for any player in turn, to decide that he will not show his hand or surrender it. However, once a player surrenders his hand this will not prevent other player's from their right to see his hand, if requested.

Even when an order of show is in force, a player can either A) table his cards OR B) retain his cards face down and ask to see any hand.  Then it's up to the house as to whether the requested hand will be shown.

[Nick C]

Mike,
You said: "Even when an order of show is in force, a player can either A) table his cards OR B) retain his cards face down and ask to see any hand. Then it's up to the house as to whether the requested hand will be shown."

 This is how I handle all showdowns:  No player can retain his cards face down, when it's his turn to act. A player that refuses to show his hand, in turn, could needlessly hold up the showdown process. A player, in for all bets, attempting to "ditch" his hand does not deprive another player his right to see the hand.

 It's always worked for me.