POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS > Poker TDA Rules & Procedures Questions, General
BB folds when facing no bet
MikeB:
TDA Founder Dave Lamb first proposed the language of Rule 58 based on the exact scenario in the OP. The situation was raised by the manager of a bar league who had allowed the BB to continue playing on the final table of a tournament.
Dave favored the view that all gestures or declarations of folding prior to showdown should be considered binding. He did think that in low-stake situations, and particularly those involving a new player, some consideration could be given, however in high-stakes poker pushing the cards back to the player would violate one player to a hand and open up angles (a really strong hand could fake weakness by trying to fold). His proposal was approved at the 2011 (or 2013?) Summit and has been in place and re-affirmed since.
Thanks for the great question!
Nick C:
Hi Mike,
I'm beginning to realize why I disagree with so many poker rules...considering the assistance from a dealer as a violation of "one player to a hand" rule. I believe that common sense should override a questionable occurrence at the table. If the dealer gives a verbal command or advises a player as to whether he or she should call, raise or fold, of course, that is unacceptable. Back to the original post.
QUESTION: Why would any player in for all bets surrender their hand before seeing the flop?
ANSWER: A mistake...or dumping chips. SEE TDA #69 Ethical Play.
In my opinion, the dealer should not be considered for the one player to a hand rule in that situation.
Returning the hand to the posted big blind in that situation is the best way to assure that there is no collusion or chip dumping.
Mike, please say hello to David Lamb for me. I've tried to contact him on occasion but was unable to reach him. Thank you.
BillM16:
--- Quote from: Nick C on April 10, 2018, 07:07:25 AM --- I'm beginning to realize why I disagree with so many poker rules...considering the assistance from a dealer as a violation of "one player to a hand" rule. I believe that common sense should override a questionable occurrence at the table.
--- End quote ---
Nick, I'm pretty sure that you would agree that what seems to be common sense to one or even many, is not necessarily common sense to the majority. As you know, the TDA Rules are established by majority voting. I support your right to disagree and work for change. I respectfully suggest that you make your point(s) on other than what is common sense to you.
--- Quote from: Nick C on April 10, 2018, 07:07:25 AM --- Back to the original post.
QUESTION: Why would any player in for all bets surrender their hand before seeing the flop?
ANSWER: A mistake...or dumping chips. SEE TDA #69 Ethical Play.
In my opinion, the dealer should not be considered for the one player to a hand rule in that situation.
--- End quote ---
In the OP, there were only two remaining players. Therefore, suggesting that this might be chip dumping is certainly NOT common sense. It had to be a mistake by a player who failed to pay attention to the situation at hand. Players who pay less attention to the game than their opponent(s) deserve to pay the price by losing chips. It is not the role of dealers to assist players with attention to the game, especially heads-up for the money!
Nick C:
Okay, Bill,
I don't know where to begin. All I will say is that I don't agree with anything you said. Common sense is just that simple...it's common sense! As far as the TDA rules being established by majority voting, I'll disagree with that, too. I never said to change a rule, I merely stated what I would rule, and why. I think this is a perfect situation to use TDA #1.
As far as your suggestion that I "make my point on other than what is common sense to me" ...Hmm, is there any member of the TDA that has done that more than me? :D No...
I suggest you read the question again. Would your decision be different if there were multiple players that folded to the blinds? You also admitted that it was a mistake!
I believe there are rules for poker that suggest any player seeing an error about to occur would have an ethical obligation to correct it.
I'm still waiting for more suggestions and replies to remedy the issues with the reopening of betting...or are we just going to let it go another year?
BillM16:
It is wrong for a dealer to tell a player that “you should see the flop”
- the odds are 10 to 1
- the odds are 1000 to 1
- the odds are infinitely in your favor
One player per hand always. I agree with the TDA majority. The fold is binding and under some circumstances, subject to penalty.
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