Author Topic: Reading a non tabled hand  (Read 12176 times)

Ricky9

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Reading a non tabled hand
« on: July 25, 2012, 04:48:37 PM »
[ALERT: This post copies and pastes a test question from the TDA exam. Future threads quoting a test question verbatim will be removed. It is entirely permissible to discuss the "gist" of test topics, but please do not copy and paste or quote a test question verbatim. If you think a particular question should be re-worded please send your concerns to: tdaexam@gmail.com This is not meant to reflect negatively on the OP.]

Just had this question in the TDA exam, and it's doing my nut in :)

The AhAd wasn't tabled the question said it was "flashed", it also says that the player threw the cards onto the muck face down. "We" are not killing a winning hand the player has killed his own untabled hand. If we are now reading flashed cards does this not open up a can of worms? I was torn between A and D but shocked to see the correct answer was B??

Quote
In Texas Holdem, Player A holds Ah-Ad and B holds Qs-Ks. The board is 6d-Ac-10d-Jd-3d. At showdown B tables Qs-Kc for top straight. Player A then clearly flashes two red Aces for all to see saying "beats my trip Aces" and throws the two red aces onto the muck face down. Who wins the pot and why?

Correct answer: B)
You chose: A)
Note: This question displayed answer options in random order when taking this test.

A)
Dealer should respect A's right to muck at showdown and award the pot to Player B who has the remaining exposed hand.
B)
Player A showed the winning hand (Ace high diamond flush). We cannot kill a winning hand at showdown. Award the pot to A who has mucked his hand.
C)
Even if Player A showed a hand that could have won, A irrevocably declared his hand to be trip Aces and this is binding. Award pot to B.
D)
Players must protect their hands; this is a cardinal rule of poker. Only B's hand remains exposed and un-mucked and he must receive the pot.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 10:28:28 AM by MikeB »

JasperToo

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Re: Reading a non tabled hand
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2012, 05:43:23 PM »
The question states "CLEARLY FLASHES" and I think you are getting hung up on the flashes part.  The fact is she turned over the winning hand so everybody could clearly see it.  The fact that she miscalled it and turned them back over is irrelevant.  Though that seems to be the "tricky" part of the question!

Nick C

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Re: Reading a non tabled hand
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2012, 08:06:29 PM »
 I'm with Ricky on this one. Flashing a card and tabling your hand are two different things. There are players that lift their cards in such a manner that they are exposed, but this is not the same as properly tabling your hand.

 Here we go again, another problem created in tournament poker because all players did not table their hand at the showdown.

 I've been holding off taking the new exam for a number of reasons. This is one of them.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 06:32:55 PM by Nick C »

chet

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Re: Reading a non tabled hand
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2012, 08:43:23 PM »
Nick:

The questions in the new exam are much harder and cover situations that might really happen in the real world.  You need to read each question carefully.  In the example at hand, the question clearly states, "clearly flashes two red Aces for all to see".  Since "All" the players were able to see the hand, I believe that Rule 15 comes into play and all players have a responsibility to ensure the winning hand is paid.

OR

Are you now suggesting that the TDA needs to develop a rule that defines what constitutes a "Tabled Hand", I hope not?  Have you never misread your hand, believed you were beat, and then had another player speak up and say you had the winning hand?

I believe this type of situation is exactly the reason we have Rule 15.

As to your reluctance to take the new exam, I suggest you read the question, choose your answer(s), then before selecting those answers, read the question one or two more times to make sure you caught all the little details that might make one situation different from another. 

If the questions were all "vanilla" situations, anybody could take the exam and pass the first time.  I think it is a HUGE improvement over the prior exam, in that you actually need to know something and think a bit in order to get the corrects answer(s).

Chet

ew2484

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Re: Reading a non tabled hand
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2012, 10:24:31 PM »
I'm with you Ricky, its a tricky problem that gets worded terribly and because of that, what i would believe to be the correct answer isnt even an option. IMO, what would be a correct answer is "While Player A flashed the winning hand, before tabling the hand he tossed it face down into to the muck. Since Player B's hand was the only one properly tabled before mucking, Player B wins the pot"

But again, this is based on what my interpretation of "flashing" a hand is. I picture it as them holding their hand in the air for a second showing the table, then mucking. The wording in the actual question needs to be changed from "Clearly flashing" to "momentarily tabling". At that point, it is a tabled hand and as such, will be awarded the pot.

Nick C

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Re: Reading a non tabled hand
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2012, 10:42:23 PM »
Chet,

 I guess I need to better explain myself. I am reluctant to re-take the exam because there are many situations that I know I would apply rule #1. When I joined the TDA some of the new rules were not on the books. I thought that my participation on the forum would influence...well, what I would consider to be favorable changes. That has not happened.

 As far as the definition of a properly tabled hand, I would be very much in favor of the TDA establishing exactly what it means: A Tabled hand is face-up horizontal on the table for all to see. Not a hand that is flashed, or noticed by a floorperson walking by.

 In the test example, would you award the pot to the player if they flashed the Ace of diamonds only? Tabled means, on the table face-up.

K-Lo

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Re: Reading a non tabled hand
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2012, 11:09:59 PM »
Personally, I liked this question and am with Chet and Jasper.  If the question used the specific word "tabled", then the answer would be obvious right (because that word is used in the Rule)?  The point here is, IMO, what is the key property associated with "tabling" a hand... it's not whether the cards are physically lying on the table.

I agree with Chet that the most relevant fact in the question is that all players at the table were able to see the hand clearly; so regardless of whatever one pictures as the action suggested by the word "flashed", the action would in my view, be equivalent to tabling the hand.  I would not read "clearly flashed for all to see" so restrictively as "showing the hand for a millisecond so it could not clearly be seen by all".  If everyone can see that Ah-Ad was the winning hand, and we want the winning hand to win the pot wherever possible as a general principle, we should not be killing the hand just because the player didn't physically lay the cards on the table.

FWIW, I would not award the pot to the player if they flashed only one card -- one card does not constitute a hand.  I would also be reluctant to define "tabled" so narrowly as meaning on the table face-up. I think it would definitely cause more problems than it would solve. (e.g. Player A holds the cards face-up on the table, the back of her hand is on the table, but the cards are not touching the table, does that count?)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 11:17:34 PM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Reading a non tabled hand
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2012, 11:19:16 PM »
K-Lo:

 The player thought they had a loser. They intentionally surrendered their hand (or attempted to). It happens all the time. Tabling your hand is not showing it to your neighbor, or any number of players at the table. The purpose is to show the dealer too, along with the other players. I see nothing complicated about defining a tabled hand.

 Let's just say I don't like the question, either.

 By the way; let's not forget to issue a penalty. I'm sure he didn't raise with his exclusive nut hand, before he clearly exposed his hand :o!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 11:31:43 PM by Nick C »

chet

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Re: Reading a non tabled hand
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2012, 11:28:15 PM »
To those who disagree or think the question was improperly worded.  

You are taking an exam based on the facts, situation, circumstances given in the example.  You may not like the example, you may not think the question is worded properly and so forth, but the the fact remains you have to answer based on the example as given.  

It is my belief that some of the questions were worded the way they were to simulate extreme situations that are outside of the normal.  They were intended to make sure you read the example correctly and completely and then had to "think" about what the correct answer is based on the whole example.  

Would it be much of a question if it said Player A tabled his cards then picked them up and tossed them into the muck?  That doesn't make one think very hard, does it?  

K-Lo

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Re: Reading a non tabled hand
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2012, 11:35:20 PM »
The purpose is to show the dealer too, along with the other players.

Agreed.  That's my point... if you read the question carefully (and not with a mind trying to misunderstand, and I don't mean you specifically but the reader in general) I think it is actually pretty clear that your purpose, as you've noted, is achieved.  

It also helps if you clue into what the question is attempting to test here before answering it, thinking of an exam setter's perspective.  Yes, generally a "mucked" hand is a mucked hand as you've noted, except in circumstances such as this where Rule 16 applies.  

Nick C

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Re: Reading a non tabled hand
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2012, 11:38:14 PM »
Chet:

 The idiot was mucking the exclusive nut hand, if the dealer saw the hand it wouldn't have reached the muck.

 Good night...we can continue round two tomorrow :D

Ricky9

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Re: Reading a non tabled hand
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2012, 02:07:12 AM »
I did spend ages on this question btw, as I couldn't find the answer I wanted also I was trying to determine what the question was trying to get at.
There are so many reasons why I think the answer is flawed (I am not whinging that I got a question wrong either, I am just questioning myself and rulings I have made in the past)

Although they were flashed for "all to see". Did "ALL" see, does everyone have to confirm what they saw?
The player that tabled the top straight that has been waiting for a waitress has just acknowledged her and tipped whilst these cards were "flashed" and heard the words "beats my trip aces" looked back at the table to see only his cards and the board readable and the pot going to someone else without cards on the say so of the locals.

Lets say it wasn't the nut hand "flashed" lets say it was a black and red king, it's gone check check on the river and the kings are flashed for all to see. He then says your ace must be good and mucks. Do we now go to rule 14 or does the fact he has revealed his cards mid air mean that it is now a contested pot even though he has mucked? Or in the same scenario, he flashes his kings and mucks after the player shows his broadway. One player suggests that he had a king flush with his Kd the broadway says no it was Kh, dealer saw 2 kings one red one black but can't remember what suit, is it majority rule?

We could then go on to fouled hands, If I am in seat 10 with 3 cards I now know how to play them if they are favourable.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 02:15:19 AM by Ricky9 »

K-Lo

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Re: Reading a non tabled hand
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2012, 06:45:04 AM »
I just think if any of those "exceptions" to the fact scenario applied (e.g. the caller didn't see the hand, the players couldn't identify the cards exactly, the hand had 3 cards), then those facts would have been explicitly raised in the question. If you read too many "what ifs" into a given fact pattern, you could successfully change the nature of every question on the exam.  The question when read as-is is more likely to suggest to the reader that all players clearly saw both cards, rather than the other circumstances that you described. 

Is there another way that you would prefer to see the question worded that doesn't involve ("Player A tables the hand and says...")? 

Maybe we were better off asking questions like "where was the WSOP held this year", or "who won the Players Championship in 2007", or "who was inducted into the Hall of Fame last year"...?  LOL


Ricky9

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Re: Reading a non tabled hand
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2012, 07:19:37 AM »
2 red aces are easy to read when flashed. All I am saying if it was Omaha Hilo can players be certain that a winning hand was flashed.
It has to be tabled to eliminate my questions.
The question could have been less ambiguous if the question said the hand was tabled and then the player picked his own cards up and mucked them.

And since when is a situation Black and White?

Thanks for the sarcasm btw
« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 07:27:54 AM by Ricky9 »

Ricky9

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Re: Reading a non tabled hand
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 07:35:39 AM »
I was in a situation a few months ago, where upon a break I went to the media room. I witnessed a hand "LIVE" with hole cards very similar to this where the last man checked and folded face down a small flush against a players shown 2 pair. Should I have run out of the media room and awarded the pot to the flush. (I can prove to the table what he had because it was taped).

I also train my dealers to never read an untabled hand. Should I now re word my training?