Author Topic: Raise Or Call?  (Read 4357 times)

DCJ001

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Raise Or Call?
« on: June 09, 2011, 11:37:46 AM »
Here's a question that I saw elsewhere that caused some debate:

$10,000 O8 (Limit) tourney at the 2011 WSOP. Blinds are 1300/2500:

Limp, call, call, sb calls......

The big blind has a huge stack of all colors. He's got stacks of 100, 500, 1000, and 5000 chips. He posted his bb with 2 orange 1000 chips and a purple 500 chip. He has the option of checking or raising at this point. He reaches into the pot, grabs his 3 chips, removes them, and then replaces them with a single 5000 pink chip. He does this without a saying a word.

Some players at the table thought that he had raised. Others at the table assumed that the big blind's action was a call.

What is the correct ruling?

MikeB

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Re: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2011, 11:56:03 AM »
Personally I don't like at all the idea of people "scooping up" chips that are already bet in front of them...

That aside, in this case you have to go to TDA Rule 30 "It's the players responsibility to make his actions clear" ... we're not mindreaders and if someone makes a move that's not 100% clear it's their fault if they get a ruling they don't like...

There's only two possibilities here: he's either calling (taking no further action) or raising. A) If he wanted to just call, he already had his call out there... B) Instead when he's facing his option to raise he pulls his original bet back and puts out a significantly larger chip...

I would rule it a raise up to the full legal bet permissible by the chip. Especially given that this is a limit game where 5000 is the exact maximum he can raise it to, this even makes more sense to call it a raise when he puts out exactly 5000. If he doesn't like the ruling, refer him to Rule 30...
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 04:52:35 PM by MikeB »

chet

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Re: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2011, 12:14:17 PM »
I don't like it ONE BIT that the player reached into the pot.  If he has done this before, he should get a penalty for unethical play.  Now to the matter at hand.  I don't agree with Mike that this should be a raise.  Had the player posted his blind with the single 5K chip, he would be checking in the absence of a verbal declaration of Raise.  My ruling would be that the player checked.  Why give him the benefit of a raise, when he should get his fingers slapped for touching the pot?

Also, the ONLY part of TDA Rule #30 that applies here is the last sentence, as this is a limit game.


Dave Lamb

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Re: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2011, 02:22:46 PM »
I think I can shed some light on why the players have been allowed to handle the chips in the pot.
Only at the WSOP do you see so many split games where the dealers are asked to leave the bets in front of the player anytime they are heads up in the hand. It is much faster to deal, the bet does not have to be counted down to the last chip (because in many cases the gigantic stack in front of each player is just pushed back a few inches), and the player at the end of the hand is simply instructed to, "Pull your bets back." During the course of these hands, the dealer may not have to touch any of the chips that are bet, the players adjust the stack in front of them during the course of betting action, and the chips are only verified by the dealer when awarding the pot. 

Chet is correct that normally players have no reason to handle chips that are part of the pot. Regardless of whether there should be a penalty to the player, when he reached out and picked up part of the big blind and then tossed in oversized or addition chips, I would rule with Mike that it is a raise to the maximum value of a single oversize chip. From the BB position any chips added to the pot have to be construed as a raise, the player already has the proper amount in the pot to call. 

Nick C

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Re: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2011, 03:04:25 PM »
The only time a player is allowed to retract his chips is in a situation like the one described. It is a raise. Why else would any player do that? He was already in for the bet. I'd like to add that NO PLAYER can remove anything from the pot, I know that DCJ001 was refering to the betting area. How simple life could be if players would just say "raise."

Stuart Murray

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Re: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2011, 04:01:30 PM »
ditto everyone else's response, I don't have a huge issue with the player taking his blind back, I allow this without complications, his tossing the 5,000 is unclear but I would still rule it a full minimum raise.

Stu
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JMC

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Re: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2011, 07:29:35 PM »
IMO even if he drew back the chips and put three 1,000's in it should be ruled that he needs to complete the minimal raise.

Nick C

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Re: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2011, 06:00:50 AM »
James,
 I would question why you would consider what you described as a raise? The BB already had two 1000 count chips and a 500. So why would he retract anything, and put back three 1000's? If the player tossed in four 1000's, then I would consider that an intent to raise, and insist that the minimum raise be completed.
 When teaching student dealers, I tell them that the only time any player can retrieve their own chips is to complete a bet to them, (like taking back the SB amount and replacing it with the BB), or when raising. There are other conditions to consider; the chips must be in front of the player, (in the betting area) and not actually in the pot.

chet

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Re: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2011, 07:47:45 AM »
Under TDA Rule #33, the three 1K chips cannot constitute a raise, only a call, since removing any one chip leaves less than the amount needed to call.

Brian Vickers

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Re: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2011, 10:14:46 AM »
In the case of bringing his big blind back in and then putting in 1 $5k chip, I don't see how his intention could be misconstrued.  I would rule that a raise, and see nothing wrong with him taking his big blind back first.  If he had said "raise", put in the $5k chip, he would have had to take his $2500 back anyway.  If the chips are right there in front of him, and they are his own chips, then I do not see the issue.

chet

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Re: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2011, 10:31:45 AM »
Brian:  My point being that the original post said the player "reached into the pot".  To me that is different than the player pulling back blinds that are right in front, but not in the pot.  Picky perhaps, but players have NO right to reach into the pot EVER!!.

Brian Vickers

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Re: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2011, 10:38:58 AM »
DCJ can clarify, but based on the rest of his post, I believe he was using the term "pot" to mean the chips across the line, but likely his just took back his BB from right in front of him.  If that's the case, then I would rule it a raise.

Stuart Murray

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Re: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2011, 11:04:43 AM »
I construed it by the statement "He reaches into the pot, grabs his 3 chips" which totalled 2,500.  Whilst it varies over here between dealers whether we take in the blinds, or leave them in situ, I presume that the blind was left in front of him, even though the chips are set out in front of the player as calls, raises, blinds etc, they once complete they still form 'the pot' indeed many dealers won't even form a conventional pot in the middle of the table. I often stack chips in situ without forming a pot, to prevent splashing.  The point is that 'the pot' is not just the chips that the dealer places in the middle of the table in a comunual pile or stack.

Stu
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Nick C

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Re: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2011, 03:09:57 PM »
Stuart,
 We have gone over this on other threads. The differnt style of dealing from one country to another could make a difference but, in the USA the dealers do not sweep the bets into the pot until the betting round is complete. (some really efficient dealers will burn and turn before they take in the bets)...so the chips are not mixed in with the center pot (still considered the pot) but they can not be withdrawn unless it is to complete a bet or raise, and I might add, this is a comon practice that is accepted everywhere I play.      Yes, it is part of the pot, but it is within arms reach of each player until the dealer sweeps it into the pot.

DCJ001

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Re: Raise Or Call?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2011, 03:40:26 PM »
I copied and pasted the original post from elsewhere. To clarify, the big blind's big blind was still in front of him, and not mixed into the pot.