Author Topic: Rule 42 regarding exposure of cards prior to showdown.  (Read 8985 times)

MikeB

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Rule 42 regarding exposure of cards prior to showdown.
« on: June 04, 2011, 03:53:43 PM »
Via e-mail the TDA received the following comment regarding rule 42:

*****Begin quote*****
This rule is stupid and will probably be changed. In the meantime someone will lose money and after whomever made this dumb rule changes it, those who have already lost their money can't get it back. Poker should be for adults, but this rule is for children. If someone stupid can't figure if they have the best hand  shows thier cards trying to get a tell from another person, this rule protects them..
*****End quote*****

Please feel free to respond with your opinions on this topic here.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 03:56:00 PM by MikeB »

Linda Johnson

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Re: Rule 42 regarding exposure of cards prior to showdown.
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2011, 04:22:45 PM »
I think rule 42 is totally appropriate. TDs have to worry about the integrity of the game. If you allow players to expose their cards to others, this can lead to collusion. For example, you are my friend and I raise and show you two kings and say don't call. Without this rule, this type of thing could happen at the table. This rule is good IMO. I can't see any reason that someone should be allowed to show their card(s) to anyone else with action pending.
Linda Johnson

Stuart Murray

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Re: Rule 42 regarding exposure of cards prior to showdown.
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2011, 04:41:37 PM »
I think the grammatical construction and 'excellent' most vigorous and robust argument towards the repeal of rule 42 by the author give a fantastic reasoning for having the rule changed.

LOL

Nothing wrong with rule 42, it is sufficient and i the best interests of tournament play.

Stu

Nick C

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Re: Rule 42 regarding exposure of cards prior to showdown.
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2011, 05:17:10 PM »
If you show your cards with more than one opposing player, TDA rule #42 is appropriate. Where I play, if you show your cards again, after being warned, they might ask you to leave the poker room.

I changed my wording after reading Jan's reply.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2011, 05:31:48 AM by Nick C »

pokerfish

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Re: Rule 42 regarding exposure of cards prior to showdown.
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2011, 08:15:58 PM »
While we strive to maintain integrity to the game, we also preserve that right here, on the forum. Criticizing the grammar of someone isn't in the best interest of the thread or the site. We each are entitled to an opinion. I do not agree with the originator of this thread. Inducing action affects everyone in the game. When the tournament is heads up, the final two players in the event, or it's a heads up event, showing your cards is allowed. Barring that, as Linda said, there is too much leeway for angle shooting.
Regards,
Jan Fisher
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Spence

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Re: Rule 42 regarding exposure of cards prior to showdown.
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2011, 09:07:30 PM »
We have a conditional ruling that if you are facing a bet and you expose your cards prematurely then you have conceded your claim to the pot. We created this rule to cut down on angling and collusion that was happening over things like; (EDITED)
For example, you are my friend and I raise and show you two kings and say don't call. Without this rule, this type of thing could happen at the table.
Linda Johnson
Knowing that when facing a bet, prematurely exposing ones cards would be an obvious angle and not a simple mistake, we came to the conclusion that the best course of action for preserving the integrity of the game was ruling the hand dead to discourage such poor etiquette.

pokerfish

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Re: Rule 42 regarding exposure of cards prior to showdown.
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2011, 12:06:07 AM »
Hi Spence,
If I am reading you right, I don't agree... and here's why. If you kill a hand, you are also aiding in the possible collussion. If I am TRYING to collude with you and KNOW that you'll get the pot and my hand will be dead if I expose it, then I can do this on purpose to ship you chips. I prefer the warning to penalty ruling... and NOT a dead hand. This way you don't "get what you want" if you know how the ruling will transpire. Also, maybe it was totally an accident and the person thought the hand was over? Now to kill that hand is clearly not in the best interest of the tournament. Thoughts?
Jan
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Nick C

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Re: Rule 42 regarding exposure of cards prior to showdown.
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2011, 06:10:18 AM »
Jan and Spence,
 All of what you say is possible. IMO, killing the exposed hand is not acceptable, at least for a first offense. Making a decision in the best interest of the game has to revert to the INTENT of the player. If the action is an obvious accident, that has to be considered. If a player deliberately, or intentionally exposes a hand, then the action taken can be more severe. There are too many examples of "soft play" to list but, two players betting and raising and "forcing" a third player to fold, only to show cards afterwards is one that comes to mind.
 BOTTOM LINE: DO NOT SHOW YOUR HAND WITH ACTION PENDING. IT IS UNETHICAL AND IS NOT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE GAME.

JMC

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Re: Rule 42 regarding exposure of cards prior to showdown.
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2011, 11:44:53 PM »
I had a situation where I was playing in a tournament, I had 77 in late position. I raise preflop BB only calls. Flop comes A rag rag, BB opens with 2 times minimun, I raise all in, he ponders for a minute or two then tosses his KK up in the middle of the table as if saying I'm making a big laydown because he was sure I had the AA. Once the dealer realizes what's happening he asked the player "is that a call?" Of course by then he sees a sign of releif on my face a mile wide (who would'nt say I call?). TD ruling was punishable action but allowable and made him sit out one round, He still got my chips and I had to walk away disappointed. Would anyone here have ruled differently?

Nick C

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Re: Rule 42 regarding exposure of cards prior to showdown.
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2011, 05:32:32 AM »
I don't know that there is anything else that could have been done. The fact that there were no other players involved makes the difference. The dealer could have called the floor for a decision before he said anything, or he could have asked for the cards, or repeated the amount for a call. Face up cards should not be "killed" by the dealer...so IMO, the intent of the player that exposed his hand must be determined (unfortunetly) before the opposing player responds.
  A better choice of questioning from the dealer might have been helpful. "200 to call, or your cards, please." instead of "is that a call?"

chet

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Re: Rule 42 regarding exposure of cards prior to showdown.
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2011, 07:45:43 AM »
 I agree with Nick.

JMC

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Re: Rule 42 regarding exposure of cards prior to showdown.
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2011, 08:56:33 AM »
I agree also, not that it changes the fact the player broke the house rule of exposing cards to a live player to get a read even heads up, if in fact that were the case.
Thanks James
« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 08:58:39 AM by JMC »