Author Topic: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision  (Read 1889 times)

Luca P.

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Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« on: October 16, 2016, 02:29:44 PM »
Hi all.
this happened in my card room today:
A player on the small blind re-raised, the big blind looked at his cards ( in position 1 ) put them on the table and the dealer mucked them the player then said "I haven't mucked them i was just thinking, the floor was called the player in position 1 could positively 100% identify his cards number and suit so the floor gave the player his cards back because they could be found within the muck cards.
He took this decision upon rule 60:
Accidentally Killed / Fouled Hands
A player must protect his hand at all times, including at showdown while waiting for the hand to be read.
If the dealer kills a hand by mistake or if in TDs judgement a hand is fouled and cannot be identified to
100% certainty, the player has no redress and is not entitled to a refund of called bets


I was not in the card room atm.
What are your thoughts? What would you do in this situation?
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Dave Miller

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2016, 06:37:01 PM »
You missed an important part of Rule 60:
Quote
If a hand is fouled but can be identified, it remains in play...
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MikeB

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2016, 10:02:00 PM »
Hi Luca: Each of these situations is unique and the decision to retrieve cards from the muck is at TDs discretion, i.e. it's not a "guaranteed right" that a player has. And because it's TDs discretion you'll have some disagreement as to how this should be ruled but in every case it's going to be based on the exact specifics of what happened... so a few questions

A player on the small blind re-raised, the big blind looked at his cards ( in position 1 ) put them on the table
what exactly happened here? By "put them on the table" did the player A) turn his cards face up? B) put them out in front of him? (i.e. tossing them forward) or?? Because it reads as though the player did something that the dealer interpreted as a fold.

...and the dealer mucked them
  ... to what extent were the cards mucked? Were they basically in dealer's possession but touching the muck, or clearly visible alongside or touch the muck, or were they fully pushed into the muck?

the floor was called the player in position 1 could positively 100% identify his cards number and suit so the floor gave the player his cards back because they could be found within the muck cards.
  The visual I'm getting is that: A) the player did not table his cards initially, otherwise we wouldn't ask him what the card and suit was; B) the cards were fully pushed into the muck; C) the player told the TD what his cards were (i.e. "I had the 10-J of spades"); D) the dealer looked through the muck and found the 10-J of spades and the cards were restored to the player.  Is this about what happened?

It's a case-by-case judgement call and in that situation there's no way I'd give the guy his cards back. I'd rule it an unprotected hand with no redress. TDA Rules clearly state "cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck". The only time I would consider restoring cards the dealer has taken possession of is if they're still functionally separated from the rest of the muck, i.e. still in the dealer's hand or adjacent to or are clearly still protruding from the muck.

Thanks for the great case!
« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 10:13:13 PM by MikeB »

GreggPath

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2016, 05:59:21 AM »
It's a case-by-case judgement call and in that situation there's no way I'd give the guy his cards back. I'd rule it an unprotected hand with no redress. TDA Rules clearly state "cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck". The only time I would consider restoring cards the dealer has taken possession of is if they're still functionally separated from the rest of the muck, i.e. still in the dealer's hand or adjacent to or are clearly still protruding from the muck.

I agree. If the cards are not identifiable while they are still face down, then the hand is dead.  Once they're in the muck, you can't whisper your cards to the dealer and get them back. The rule says "to 100% certainty." While unlikely, what if the fouled player lies (or is mistaken) about what his cards were and, by coincidence, those two cards are in the muck? If the dealer, on his own, can't identify the cards, they're dead.

BillM16

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2016, 10:53:57 AM »

...and the dealer mucked them
  ... to what extent were the cards mucked? Were they basically in dealer's possession but touching the muck, or clearly visible alongside or touch the muck, or were they fully pushed into the muck?

...

It's a case-by-case judgement call and in that situation there's no way I'd give the guy his cards back. I'd rule it an unprotected hand with no redress. TDA Rules clearly state "cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck". The only time I would consider restoring cards the dealer has taken possession of is if they're still functionally separated from the rest of the muck, i.e. still in the dealer's hand or adjacent to or are clearly still protruding from the muck.

Thanks for the great case!

TDA Rule #14 says: Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck.  This is the TDA definition of a killed hand.  The subject of TDA Rule #60 is Accidentally Killed / Fouled Hands.  How can #14 be used as an exception to #60 without causing confusion or contradiction?

I believe TD's are retrieving cards from the muck based on their best judgement given rule #60 without the exception that Mike and others are speaking.  How would the majority of the TDA members rule in a case of cards pushed entirely into the muck, accidentally by the dealer, if the player can precisely identify their cards?  Would a discussion at the next TDA Summit yield more clarity?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 10:56:11 AM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2016, 10:57:34 AM »
Yes...I agree that once the cards are "in the muck" they are no longer even considered as identifiable. Players must protect their own hand, failure to do so is not the dealers fault.

Luca P.

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2016, 11:11:13 AM »
the floor was called the player in position 1 could positively 100% identify his cards number and suit so the floor gave the player his cards back because they could be found within the muck cards.
  The visual I'm getting is that: A) the player did not table his cards initially, otherwise we wouldn't ask him what the card and suit was; B) the cards were fully pushed into the muck; C) the player told the TD what his cards were (i.e. "I had the 10-J of spades"); D) the dealer looked through the muck and found the 10-J of spades and the cards were restored to the player.  Is this about what happened?

It's a case-by-case judgement call and in that situation there's no way I'd give the guy his cards back. I'd rule it an unprotected hand with no redress. TDA Rules clearly state "cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck". The only time I would consider restoring cards the dealer has taken possession of is if they're still functionally separated from the rest of the muck, i.e. still in the dealer's hand or adjacent to or are clearly still protruding from the muck.

Thanks for the great case!

You almost got the scenario: the only different thing is that the dealer pushed the cards into the muck. The player told the supervisor (not the dealer) which cards he had, suit and number, and he was able to identify them.
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GreggPath

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2016, 11:15:17 AM »
Yes...I agree that once the cards are "in the muck" they are no longer even considered as identifiable. Players must protect their own hand, failure to do so is not the dealers fault.

Drumroll please... I agree with Nick. (Ok, that didn't hurt to say as much as I thought it would  ;D). Dealers accidentally mucking a hand is going to happen occasionally... that's why you protect your hand (personally, I always keep one finger on top of my cards)... if they're completely in the muck, they're gone. I don't think there should be any situation where telling a dealer/FM what your cards were then having them retrieved from the muck is acceptable.

Nick C

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2016, 11:20:08 AM »
Hey Gregg, I'm laughing, too. I would like to add: you finally got one right ;D I hope you're laughing with me.

Dave Miller

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2016, 11:54:30 AM »
The mental image I got was that the cards were partially in the muck. I.E., they can be retrieved. Also, he told the TD the value, as proof that those were the correct cards.

That's what I define as "retrievable and identifiable" therefore, live cards.
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But how much does it cost to knock on wood?

MikeB

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2016, 12:07:51 PM »
The mental image I got was that the cards were partially in the muck. I.E., they can be retrieved. Also, he told the TD the value, as proof that those were the correct cards.

That's what I define as "retrievable and identifiable" therefore, live cards.
Exactly, and that's why this is a TD decision at the time, hard to generalize, but 100% identifiable has to be the standard.... 99% won't do.

BillM16

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2016, 04:04:47 PM »
I too agree that cards accidentally mucked should not be retrieved - even when the player knows his exact cards.  The problem here is that the rules do not represent this opinion.  My (our) opinion itself may not represent the majority opinion of the TDA.  To the contrary, it says that accidentally mucked hands are live if they are 100% identifiable.  It makes no mention of who must identify the cards.  Is it the dealer?  Is it the TD?  Or, is it the player who's hand was accidentally mucked?  Perhaps everyone at the table must agree 100%?  Without clarification the rule cannot and will not be applied consistently. As written, judgement is completely left to the individual TD and the usual influences of a table full of poker players with their own motivations - winning.  If the cards completely in the muck cannot be retrieved it needs to be stated in rule #60.  Taking it out-of-context from rule #16 is inadequate.

Most every player who has had this happen can identify his hand with 100% accuracy.  With the current rule, it is reasonable for them to expect their hand to be declared live when the dealer accidentally mucks their hand. 

I'm not even going to go to the trouble of listing numerous examples of "protected hands" that got "accidentally mucked."  It happens. 

If the majority of the TDA agree that cards SHOULD be retrieved from the muck then I too will enforce that ruling.  I don't like having the rule applied differently depending on the TD and table.  After all, the benefit of the TDA Rules is the consistency it brings.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 04:38:15 PM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2016, 07:42:10 AM »
BillM16,

 Excellent post. I'm not in favor of asking for the identity of the mucked cards because there are only two ways it can be done...number one, whisper the cards to the floor (before he begins his search). Second announce the cards to the table...both are far too unethical to me. What if they are announced and then not found?  Players are then aware of the possibility for those cards to still be live. How bad does the whispering look...and whats to stop the floor from pulling the two best cards in the muck to his buddy? We can never allow such a rule. The only exceptions (in my opinion) is if the cards were properly tabled face up before being mucked, or the two mucked cards are the first two cards (therefore, the only two cards) making up the muck.

 Frrom a players perspective...protecting your own hand is from poker 101 and must be a top priority.

MikeB

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2016, 12:18:26 PM »
I too agree that cards accidentally mucked should not be retrieved - even when the player knows his exact cards.  The problem here is that the rules do not represent this opinion.  My (our) opinion itself may not represent the majority opinion of the TDA.  To the contrary, it says that accidentally mucked hands are live if they are 100% identifiable.  It makes no mention of who must identify the cards.  Is it the dealer?  Is it the TD?


The rule clearly says "100% identifiable" is per the judgement of the TD: "A player must protect his hand at all times, including at showdown while waiting for the hand to be read. If the dealer kills a hand by mistake or if in TDs judgement a hand is fouled and cannot be identified to 100% certainty"

This language specifies two conditions for a hand being irretrievable: 1) "killed by the dealer" which is defined in Rule 14: "... cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck" AND 2) TDs judgement that a hand cannot be identified to 100% certainty.

If the cards completely in the muck cannot be retrieved it needs to be stated in rule #60.  Taking it out-of-context from rule #16 is inadequate.
It's not out of context in 16, it's in context as 16 defines what "killed by the dealer" means.

Most every player who has had this happen can identify his hand with 100% accuracy.  With the current rule, it is reasonable for them to expect their hand to be declared live when the dealer accidentally mucks their hand. 
There's no guaranteed provision in the current rule for retrieving cards based on what a player says they were. Further, the cards are dead if "killed by the dealer", i.e. "into the muck". These are strong guidelines for a TD to use in determining if he or she thinks the cards are 100% identifiable.

So, question: What kind of language and/or discussion would give you greater direction for making a decision? Perhaps the TDA could discuss the following 12 conditions for non-tabled cards and whether they are retrievable:

Cards not yet in dealers possession X 2 additional possibilities**
Cards in dealers possession but separate from the muck **
Cards in dealer possession but touching the muck **
Cards placed in the muck but thought to be "clearly protruding" **
Cards placed "on top" of the muck **
Cards placed into the muck and unquestionably mixed with other cards **

**Each of these situations with or without player's capacity to identify his/her exact cards by rank and suit.

That would at least give you a matrix of possibilities and most situations would fall into one of those 12 conditions... we could see where the majority opinion lies on these...  but even then you're going to have variations and ultimately the only standard that means anything is "identifiable to 100% certainty in TDs judgement".

Thanks for bringing attention to this important issue.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 02:47:49 PM by MikeB »

BROOKS

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2016, 01:16:45 PM »
BillM16,

 Excellent post. I'm not in favor of asking for the identity of the mucked cards because there are only two ways it can be done...number one, whisper the cards to the floor (before he begins his search). Second announce the cards to the table...both are far too unethical to me. What if they are announced and then not found?  Players are then aware of the possibility for those cards to still be live. How bad does the whispering look...and whats to stop the floor from pulling the two best cards in the muck to his buddy? We can never allow such a rule. The only exceptions (in my opinion) is if the cards were properly tabled face up before being mucked, or the two mucked cards are the first two cards (therefore, the only two cards) making up the muck.

 Frrom a players perspective...protecting your own hand is from poker 101 and must be a top priority.

I absolutely agree 100%