Author Topic: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision  (Read 14419 times)

Nick C

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2016, 04:49:25 PM »
 :) :) :) :)

BillM16

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2016, 07:04:32 AM »

The rule clearly says "100% identifiable" is per the judgement of the TD: "A player must protect his hand at all times, including at showdown while waiting for the hand to be read. If the dealer kills a hand by mistake or if in TDs judgement a hand is fouled and cannot be identified to 100% certainty"

This language specifies two conditions for a hand being irretrievable: 1) "killed by the dealer" which is defined in Rule 14: "... cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck" AND 2) TDs judgement that a hand cannot be identified to 100% certainty.


Mike, here's where I think the confusion is:

Labeled Rule:

(A) If the dealer kills a hand by mistake (B) or if in TDs judgement a hand is fouled (C) and cannot be identified to 100% certainty, (D) the player has no redress and is not entitled to a refund of called bets.

The compound sentence allows for differing interpretations.  It is like the saying:

If A is true or if B is true and if C is true, then D is true.

This can be interpreted as either of these two options:

1) If either A is true or if ( both B and C are true ) then D is true.

2) if ( either A or B is true ) and if C is true then D is true.

Option 1 results:

The hand is dead every time the dealer accidentally pushes a hand into the muck.
And, the hand is dead every time that in the TD’s judgement the hand is fouled and it cannot be 100% identified.


Option 2 results:

Whenever, either a dealer pushes a hand into the muck or in the TD’s judgement a hand is fouled, the hand will be dead if it cannot be 100% identified.

I don't think it would be worthwhile for the TDA to discuss the 12 or more scenarios that you enumerated.  It would likely result in more confusion.  This is a matter of answering the basic question:  Can a TD retrieve cards from the muck if the dealer pushed them by mistake and the player can identify his two cards accurately.  I hope the answer is no and I'd like to see agreement in the TDA.  Also, I'd like to see wording that eliminates the erroneous interpretation.

Does identified to 100% certainty mean: 1) two identified cards must be fetched from the muck without looking at the faces and 2) the TD must verify those two cards by secretly asking the player for the exact rank and suit of both cards.  If so, then it should be made clear.

Again, some TD's are pulling cards from a pile of mucked cards looking for the two cards that the player whispered into his ear.  In the TD's judgement the cards were 100% identifiable.  In other cases, TD's are refusing to search the muck for cards that players can 100% identify.

Regards, B~.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 10:28:08 AM by BillM16 »

Nick C

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2016, 10:47:07 AM »
BillM16,

 You get my vote for the post of the year! ;)

 Face down, into the muck without having been properly tabled constitutes a dead hand...it is, and always has been, the players responsibility to protect his own hand! Digging in the muck to retrieve discards...whispering in the TD's ear... ridiculous!

BROOKS

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Re: Killed hand - retrieved and made live by floor decision
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2016, 12:18:17 AM »
I agree, excellent post Bill!!

I feel this part needs to be highlighted:

Can a TD retrieve cards from the muck if the dealer pushed them by mistake and the player can identify his two cards accurately.  I hope the answer is no and I'd like to see agreement in the TDA.

Hopefully this can be discussed at the next summit.