Author Topic: Two topics: boxed card AND thoughts on substantial action  (Read 13065 times)

Steven

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Two topics: boxed card AND thoughts on substantial action
« on: August 27, 2013, 12:50:30 AM »
At least one version of Roberts's Rules specifies

7. A card discovered faceup in the deck (boxed card) will be treated as a meaningless scrap of paper. A card being treated as a scrap of paper will be replaced by the next card below it in the deck, except when the next card has already been dealt facedown to another player and mixed in with other downcards. In that case, the card that was faceup in the deck will be replaced after all other cards are dealt for that round.

Do you all treat the boxed card this way when the dealer "deals past" the boxed card?  that is, the rule replaces the boxed card at the end of the deal when the dealer does not catch the boxed card and continues the deal.

I'm curious because I've seen some floor people treat it as a misdeal.

Just because something is in Robert's Rules, I'm not sure that a house is obliged to honor it unless the house rules incorporate the rules in some way!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 08:34:48 AM by MikeB »

Nick C

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Re: boxed card
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2013, 08:01:14 AM »
Hello Steven,

 The boxed card can become a bit more complex in a stud type game, as opposed to a flop game. Imagine dealing the river card, in stud, and dealing past the boxed card...a misdeal would not be an option.

 A boxed card during the initial deal of a flop game would be handled exactly the way Robert's Rules describes it...that is; it would be replaced by the card directly beneath it. If, however, the dealer deals beyond the boxed card and the next card is dealt the next (incorrect) player...I would consider a misdeal if substantial action has not occurred.

 Keep in mind, the incidence of a boxed card is (or should be) a very, very, rare occurrence.

 To answer your question more specifically, I guess it would depend on the type of game being played, and when the boxed card appears.

 Good question.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: boxed card
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2013, 05:20:27 PM »
Just because something is in Robert's Rules, I'm not sure that a house is obliged to honor it unless the house rules incorporate the rules in some way!


Add to that list, that just because it part of the TDA rules.... they are not obliged. No casino is bound by anybody rules but their own.
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WSOPMcGee

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Re: boxed card
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2013, 01:39:53 PM »
I'm curious because I've seen some floor people treat it as a misdeal.
Depends when the boxed card happens and how many boxed cards there are. You'll find some directors don't care if there's 20 boxed cards. Some like me find that unacceptable.

If the boxed card is on the initial deal it's a misdeal. Why? Because you want to know if there are more boxed cards. Stopping here eliminates other possible floor decisions.

If the boxed card is after the initial deal and is on future betting rounds, you treat it like paper and replace with the very next card. If the next is already dealt and mixed in to the next player, then yes, give all players due a card and comeback to the player who was to be dealt the boxed card.

Here's the tricky part. How many boxed cards is too many? I could be wrong but I believe the EPT rule is 4 and is a misdeal where all players are refunded their monies. Why 4? I have no idea. I think they just made something up here. No other tour entity uses any such rule that I'm aware of. But I would venture to say that any more than one per round of action is too many. In Holdem that would be 4. In Stud that would be 5. So maybe that's where it comes from. I'll have to ask Neil about the origin of the rule.

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K-Lo

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Re: boxed card
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2013, 06:30:21 AM »

Here's the tricky part. How many boxed cards is too many?


It would be nice to get some consensus and consistency on how to treat boxed cards post-initial-deal.

Nick C

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Re: boxed card
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2013, 07:20:47 AM »
Ken,

 I think one of the issues we face with boxed cards is also dependent on other rules...the first that comes to mind is substantial action.  How about significant action through three or four betting rounds, in a stud game? I know how I would handle these situations but, it would be nice to get some consensus and consistency on how to treat boxed cards post-initial-deal, as you stated.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: boxed card
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2013, 03:00:33 AM »
Just did some quick research - EPT Rule #23:

23. Boxed Card - A boxed card is a card discovered face up in the deck when it should be face down. If discovered in the deck it is removed and treated as a non-existent card. Four or more boxed cards will result in the hand being misdealt.
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Nick C

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Re: boxed card
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2013, 06:19:03 AM »
Thomas,

 How would you rule; if the 4th boxed card appeared while dealing the river card, in a game with multiple player's and significant action? This is where, one rule "conflicts" with another. There must be a time where the hand must proceed..."a point of no return" so to speak. If the situation I mentioned occurred, I would probably suspend any further action, or possibly allow player's the option to continue betting, or declare themselves eligible for the main pot, if other's decide to bet.

 How can you return all bets after three or four rounds of betting? My floor position would allow me to use rule #1 and make my decision in the best interest of the game. So in the situation I described, I'd rule that Substantial Action, would overrule Too Many Boxed Cards.

 There are some old rule-sets that call for a misdeal when 2 boxed cards appear! Don't like it, unless it's on the initial deal, before any action begins.

K-Lo

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Re: boxed card
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2013, 06:39:53 AM »
I have the same concerns as Nick. 

If I find one boxed card on the initial deal, I don't mind fanning the deck face down, and if I were to find additional boxed cards then, calling for a misdeal.

Are we really supposed to call for a misdeal, in a heavily contested multiway pot in Stud after boxed cards appear on seventh street?  Seems like we're throwing the principles behind 'no misdeal after there has been substantial action' out of the window.

WSOPMcGee

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Re: boxed card
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2013, 09:21:02 PM »
Thomas,

 How would you rule; if the 4th boxed card appeared while dealing the river card, in a game with multiple player's and significant action? This is where, one rule "conflicts" with another. There must be a time where the hand must proceed..."a point of no return" so to speak. If the situation I mentioned occurred, I would probably suspend any further action, or possibly allow player's the option to continue betting, or declare themselves eligible for the main pot, if other's decide to bet.

 How can you return all bets after three or four rounds of betting? My floor position would allow me to use rule #1 and make my decision in the best interest of the game. So in the situation I described, I'd rule that Substantial Action, would overrule Too Many Boxed Cards.

 There are some old rule-sets that call for a misdeal when 2 boxed cards appear! Don't like it, unless it's on the initial deal, before any action begins.
I'm going to complete the hand. Sorry Neal.
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Tristan

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Re: boxed card
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2013, 12:33:40 PM »
I'm going to complete the hand. Sorry Neal.

I agree.
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Nick C

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Re: boxed card
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2013, 12:58:13 PM »
Thomas and Tristan,

 Pay attention, will you ???...you disagree with me on almost every post, yet you still get my name wrong! Please don't apologize.  ;D

Tristan

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Re: boxed card
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2013, 01:30:04 PM »
Lol  :D
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K-Lo

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Re: boxed card
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2013, 01:33:07 PM »
Looking for compromise...

I'm also of the mind that if there's even one boxed card on the initial deal, it should be a misdeal.

However, most rule sets still use the terminology "2 or more" boxed cards.

Ideally, we modify the rule to have a misdeal called when any boxed cards are found on the initial deal OR we keep the "2 boxed cards" rule but allow the deck to be fanned so if we do find a second or additional boxed card, we can apply the rule as-is and call for a misdeal.

Thoughts?

Nick C

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Re: boxed card
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2013, 03:10:37 PM »
This is what Robert's Rules says:


 MISDEALS

1. Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called. The deal will be played, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on their hands. In stud games, action is considered to occur when two players after the forced bet have acted on their hands.

 What I find real interesting is the fact that Robert's Rules says nothing else about substantial action. In fact, substantial action is not in the glossary for RRoP!

 Robert's Rules does however, make clear reference to the fact that a misdeal should not be called in our scenario.

 There is no mention of chips in the pot, either...it's two actions period! I realize that Robert's Rules is for cash games but, I still find a considerable discrepancy, would you agree?