Author Topic: New rule - Dead hand not "at seat" (from TDA Summit)  (Read 15193 times)

Martin Roy TD

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Re: New rule - Dead hand not "at seat" (from TDA Summit)
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2013, 08:42:08 PM »
Ken,

 To say that I needed to be in attendance in order to make a difference is untrue. I was at the Summit in 2011. The only thing I can say about my being there was; I said just about everything I wanted to say.

 Mike,

 All of the issues that you have listed as done, remain to be seen. Baumann vs Koroknai ? There are more holes in that contest than a Swiss cheese ::)

 Let's look at what went wrong? Andras goes all-in for 1,397,000 and doesn't even know Baumann raised to 60,000 in front of him. Accepted Action, anyone?

                                              Andras mucks his hand, thinking he's won the pot!??...Really? Come on. Oh, did anyone ever find those jacks he claimed he had?
                                          there were only 16 cards to look through to possibly catch him in a lie
.
                                              The dealer certainly could have offered more protection to Anras by preventing his hand from hitting the muck. However, based on all
                                          prior discussions, the dealer was reluctant to do his job properly because there are those that feel he would be in violation of the one
                                          player per hand rule, which by the was was never intended to include dealers.

                                               Gaelle Bauman...Hmm, now what did she do wrong? I'll tell you what. She didn't call fast enough, and she didn't scream loud enough.
                                          She conducted herself like the lady she is. I wonder what Phil H would have done in her place?

 What should have happened:     Koroknai's hand should have been dead as soon as it was lost in the muck.

                                               Koroknai's tournament should have ended right there on the spot. Awarding Gaelle the 60,000 was the least she could have received
                                           The 1,337,000 all-in raise amount, should have been removed from play.

How can we prevent the same from happening again?

The vote at the Summit seemed to be in favor of giving the dealers a more active roll by allowing them to return the cards to Andras. (this is a step in the right direction, and I hope it is written into the new rules).

                                              I have one more suggestion: Insist that all players, contesting a pot at showdown, retain possession of their hole cards until they see a hand that is better than theirs, or they have been pushed the pot!

There's so much more...but one at a time. :-X

                                                                                                       
 I don't think the decision was the best one, but not that worst.
 
 IMO, Koroknai should be bind to a min raise and award the pot to Baumann.

 Question : If Gaelle said call before the TD get to the table, they will gave the entire stack to Gaelle ?                           
                     

Nick C

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Re: New rule - Dead hand not "at seat" (from TDA Summit)
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2013, 05:32:14 AM »
To old,

 Yes...that's the way I see it...and that's how I would have ruled. They actually said (Jack Effel) that if she had called, they would have awarded her the pot. Looking back, is much easier than making the call when it happened but, giving Andras back 1,337,000 only to have him eliminate Gaelle the next day, and advance to the final table with a guaranteed million in the bank...well...that's quite a swing, don't you think?

 We can never allow that to happen again. Players need to hold on to their cards...that's it! I do not release my hand until the dealer pushes the pot. Let's make that the simple rule.

Martin Roy TD

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Re: New rule - Dead hand not "at seat" (from TDA Summit)
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2013, 06:07:29 AM »
I agree with you and it's not a funny situation when it happened.


Tristan

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Re: New rule - Dead hand not "at seat" (from TDA Summit)
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2013, 11:53:00 AM »
Let's not forget that first card off is not a new rule.  It has been used in the EPT, APPT, LAPT, ANZPT, UKIPT, IPT, BPT, and ESPT for a while now.  I do understand the concerns with implementing it all over, but overall I do feel that it is good.

I work the PCA every year, and I haven't seen any real issues with it.  I do tend to not pitch the cards all the way out to a spot that is vacant, just because it saves reaching out or having a player grab it for you.  Also, a dealer should inform a player that their hand is dead before the player looks at it.  Even with last card hits the button, players have come back to their hand as the dealer is reaching to kill it.  Same situation, just at a different time and possibly more common.

As you are walking around the tables as a TD, how often do you see what cards players have?  I can see their cards all of the time and most of the time they are not even aware that I was there or that I saw their hand.  I do see that as a big concern, and I feel the rule change fixes that.  It also just happens to somewhat fix dealer favoritism and satellite players remaining seated.
Tristan
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Stuart Murray

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Re: New rule - Dead hand not "at seat" (from TDA Summit)
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2013, 05:19:05 PM »
Just to stick my oar in on this one, British casinos have been converting their rules to first card over the last year or so and I must say I love it, it works well in every cardroom I have been in, and I was very hopeful it would be adopted by the TDA, notwithstanding our own companies rules will reflect this once the new TDA rules are published and it has been at the top of my list for alterations, but I have been patiently waiting for the TDA update to change our own rules!

Stu