POKER TOURNAMENT RULES QUESTIONS & DISCUSSIONS > Non-TDA Tournament and General Poker Rules Discussion

EPT Rules

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K-Lo:
In anticipation of discussion of the showdown rules at the Summit this year, I think it is instructive to consider how the EPT has tried to tweak its own showdown rules to deal with situations with players not showing, whether players can muck at showdown, whether the winner needs to show his hand to claim the pot, who may ask to see which hands, etc...  Any thoughts?

I found the 5-second countdown plus penalty section interesting...


49. All-In Showdown - All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all action is complete. If a player accidentally folds/mucks their hand before cards are turned up, tournament staff reserves the right to retrieve the cards if they are clearly identifiable. Players intentionally mucking their cards in all-in situations may be subject to a penalty.
Side Action - In scenarios where multiple players are playing on the side with an all-in player in the main pot, all side pot players who make it to the river showdown will be required to show as well as the all-in player. No player is allowed to fold at river showdown of the side pot with an all-in player in the main pot. The Dealer is instructed to turn up all hands as live and the hands will retain the ability to collect the pot.

50. Showdown - After all action is completed, the player who made the last aggressive action must show first and it proceeds clockwise. Whether that was on the river, the turn, flop or pre-flop. In Stud games, the same rule applies going back to 3rd street if necessary. If there was no aggressive action on the entire hand, the player to the left of the button (for Flop games) or the third street bring-in (for Stud games) must show first and it proceeds clockwise.
Players may refuse to show their cards in turn and are allowed to fold, thereby relinquishing their claim on the pot.
Players who refuse to show their hand or fold will be subject to the actions from Rule #51b.

51. Winning hand - A player must show all of their cards to collect the pot. This includes playing the board. If there is only one player remaining with cards, they do not have to show a winning hand to collect the pot. For example, player B bets the river and player A calls. Player B then mucks leaving player A as the only player remaining in the pot with cards. Player A then collects the pot without having to show his or her hand.
Tabled Hand - A hand is considered tabled when all cards are placed face up on the table. Flashing cards, waving them around, etc... are not considered tabling your hand. Hands will not be read and cannot win the pot until they are tabled.
Refusal to Show - If a player refuses to show all of their hole cards, the Dealer may not flip the remaining cards over and is instructed to call the Floor. The Floor will instruct the player to show all his cards or they will be folded. The player will receive a five second countdown before the Floor will announce the player's hand as dead and issue a penalty to the player for stalling the progress of play. Other players at the table may not flip the other player's cards over. If they do, the hand will play as live, but the player who flipped up cards that were not their own may receive a penalty for an etiquette violation.

52. Showing the Winner - Any player who has made it to the showdown may ask to see any other player's cards provided they still retain their cards. If they release their hand into the muck, they no longer retain the right to ask to see another player's cards. All hands requested by showdown players will be turned up live and may still claim the pot. Any player who has not made it to the showdown stage of the hand may not request to see any hands.
If there is legitimate concern about collusion between individuals, players may request the dealer hold the cards aside and ask the floor personnel to review the hand.

Tristan:

--- Quote from: K-Lo on May 08, 2013, 06:51:23 AM ---
49. All-In Showdown - All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all action is complete. If a player accidentally folds/mucks their hand before cards are turned up, tournament staff reserves the right to retrieve the cards if they are clearly identifiable. Players intentionally mucking their cards in all-in situations may be subject to a penalty.
Side Action - In scenarios where multiple players are playing on the side with an all-in player in the main pot, all side pot players who make it to the river showdown will be required to show as well as the all-in player. No player is allowed to fold at river showdown of the side pot with an all-in player in the main pot. The Dealer is instructed to turn up all hands as live and the hands will retain the ability to collect the pot.
--- End quote ---

Love it!


--- Quote from: K-Lo on May 08, 2013, 06:51:23 AM ---50. Showdown - After all action is completed, the player who made the last aggressive action must show first and it proceeds clockwise. Whether that was on the river, the turn, flop or pre-flop. In Stud games, the same rule applies going back to 3rd street if necessary. If there was no aggressive action on the entire hand, the player to the left of the button (for Flop games) or the third street bring-in (for Stud games) must show first and it proceeds clockwise.
Players may refuse to show their cards in turn and are allowed to fold, thereby relinquishing their claim on the pot.
Players who refuse to show their hand or fold will be subject to the actions from Rule #51b
--- End quote ---

Eh, we went over this.  I think it puts a little too much responsibility on the dealer to remember.  I shudder when I think about the scenarios where I get called over and two people are arguing adamantly about which one was the last to raise on the flop.


--- Quote from: K-Lo on May 08, 2013, 06:51:23 AM ---51. Winning hand - A player must show all of their cards to collect the pot. This includes playing the board. If there is only one player remaining with cards, they do not have to show a winning hand to collect the pot. For example, player B bets the river and player A calls. Player B then mucks leaving player A as the only player remaining in the pot with cards. Player A then collects the pot without having to show his or her hand.
Tabled Hand - A hand is considered tabled when all cards are placed face up on the table. Flashing cards, waving them around, etc... are not considered tabling your hand. Hands will not be read and cannot win the pot until they are tabled.
Refusal to Show - If a player refuses to show all of their hole cards, the Dealer may not flip the remaining cards over and is instructed to call the Floor. The Floor will instruct the player to show all his cards or they will be folded. The player will receive a five second countdown before the Floor will announce the player's hand as dead and issue a penalty to the player for stalling the progress of play. Other players at the table may not flip the other player's cards over. If they do, the hand will play as live, but the player who flipped up cards that were not their own may receive a penalty for an etiquette violation.
--- End quote ---

Mixed feelings.  The bolded line concerns me.  It seems a little too severe and I could players trying to use technicalities against the TD.  I like all the rest of it.


--- Quote from: K-Lo on May 08, 2013, 06:51:23 AM ---52. Showing the Winner - Any player who has made it to the showdown may ask to see any other player's cards provided they still retain their cards. If they release their hand into the muck, they no longer retain the right to ask to see another player's cards. All hands requested by showdown players will be turned up live and may still claim the pot. Any player who has not made it to the showdown stage of the hand may not request to see any hands.
If there is legitimate concern about collusion between individuals, players may request the dealer hold the cards aside and ask the floor personnel to review the hand.
--- End quote ---

Love this one too.

Nick C:
Ken and Tristan,

I'd like to see a little more clarification in #49....The Dealer is instructed to turn up all hands as live and the hands will retain the ability to collect the pot. Are they saying the floor will instruct the dealer? If so, why do they say in #51....Refusal to Show - If a player refuses to show all of their hole cards, the Dealer may not flip the remaining cards over and is instructed to call the Floor.

 I agree with Tristan on #51. I don't like going back to the last act of aggression on a prior betting round.

 I guess I don't care for #50 too much either. I often wonder how you show some player's cards at the showdown without allowing a player, not entitled, to see them ???
What do we do, tell him to close his eyes, and don't peek? ;D

Tristan:

--- Quote from: Nick C on May 09, 2013, 07:21:52 PM ---I'd like to see a little more clarification in #49....The Dealer is instructed to turn up all hands as live and the hands will retain the ability to collect the pot. Are they saying the floor will instruct the dealer? If so, why do they say in #51....Refusal to Show - If a player refuses to show all of their hole cards, the Dealer may not flip the remaining cards over and is instructed to call the Floor.
--- End quote ---

They are saying that in a hand where one player was all in, the dealer can and will show all hands.  In #51, the difference is that it is just a showdown, not an all in.  A dealer should never flip a players' hand in a normal showdown.

Nick C:
Tristan,

 They are saying that the dealer will be "instructed" to show the hand. Why don't they clear it up? No dealer has the right to expose any player's down cards unless the floor instructs him to do so or, at the explicit request of the owner of the hand.
 Now, I know that, with a little thought, we can fix it. 8)

 While I'm on the subject of clearing up the rules; what exactly does this mean? The Dealer is instructed to turn up all hands as live and the hands will retain the ability to collect the pot....the "hands" will retain the ability to collect the pot ??? No wonder player's are confused :o

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