Author Topic: Can a new player take the button?  (Read 15196 times)

Steven

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Can a new player take the button?
« on: April 01, 2013, 09:39:35 PM »
Various tournament formats allow a new player to sit down with a full stack of chips in an unoccupied seat. Could be a brand new player or a reentry.  In some situations this new seat could be in line for the button. This could occur in several scenarios.

For example, 9 handed, seat 9 is button, seat 1 SB, and seat 2 BB.  Seat 1 busts. A brand new plater is then seated in seat 1.

It seems that most TD's I've seen do not allow the new player to take the button in the above example. Rather, the button would freeze and the new player would sit out the next hand.

Similar situations can also be constructed.

I don't believe that the TDA addresses this subject. Rule 7 addresses Breaking Tables, and Rule 8 addresses Balancing Tables, but neither accounts for NEW players.

Comments?

K-Lo

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Re: Can a new player take the button?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2013, 07:23:53 AM »
Hi Steven:

This is an excellent observation, and a great question.  The topic of new players was briefly brought up here: http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=826.0.

The practice of not allowing the new player to take the button probably comes from a rule set like Robert's Rules:

7. A new player cannot be dealt in between the big blind and the button. Blinds may not be made up between the big blind and the button. You must wait until the button passes.

Not only is this rule confusing and inconsistently applied (e.g. do you always wait for the button to pass, or only if you are sitting to the right of the small blind and left of the button?), it is also generally inconsistent with balancing/breaking rules that we now use in tournaments.  I agree that we should have a clarification in the rules, and have suggested something along the lines of the following:

8.1  New Players
A new player to the table that has been assigned a dedicated seat will be treated as a player arriving from a broken table.  A new player to the table that has not been assigned a dedicated seat will be treated as having been moved as a result of balancing tables.



Nick C

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Re: Can a new player take the button?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2013, 04:24:29 PM »
It is a great observation. I think the problem stems from tournament poker where no player should be dealt out any hand. Ken is correct about the only rules that cover this situation is in Robert's Rules...that's because it is much easier to fix (in cash games) when you allow a player to wait until the button passes.

 How about dealing two dead cards to the player that enters on the button, so all player's get their proper cards and the board remains intact? I'm kidding (or am I) :-\

Tristan

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Re: Can a new player take the button?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2013, 08:25:27 AM »
Various tournament formats allow a new player to sit down with a full stack of chips in an unoccupied seat. Could be a brand new player or a reentry.  In some situations this new seat could be in line for the button. This could occur in several scenarios.

For example, 9 handed, seat 9 is button, seat 1 SB, and seat 2 BB.  Seat 1 busts. A brand new plater is then seated in seat 1.

It seems that most TD's I've seen do not allow the new player to take the button in the above example. Rather, the button would freeze and the new player would sit out the next hand.

Similar situations can also be constructed.

I don't believe that the TDA addresses this subject. Rule 7 addresses Breaking Tables, and Rule 8 addresses Balancing Tables, but neither accounts for NEW players.

Comments?

Good question.  I treat an arriving player the same as a player from a broken game.  They draw a random seat, so why should they be any different than the players who started the tournament?  The players who originally started the tournament could have been the button, the small blind, or the big blind...was just luck of the draw.  Plus it is a timed event, they should be able to play as soon as possible.
Tristan
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Can a new player take the button?
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2013, 04:40:27 PM »
^ What Tristan said

Stu

Steven

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Re: Can a new player take the button?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2013, 12:09:28 AM »
Hey all!

Thanks for yor replies some time ago!

It appears that the new TDA rules still do not give mention to what a new player can or cannot assume, so house rules will prevail (they do anyway!)

Anyway K-Lo, I was wondering if you could clarify the difference between a dedicated and non-dedicated seat in the added rule which you proposed:

8.1  New Players
A new player to the table that has been assigned a dedicated seat will be treated as a player arriving from a broken table.  A new player to the table that has not been assigned a dedicated seat will be treated as having been moved as a result of balancing tables.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 12:11:08 AM by Steven »

K-Lo

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Re: Can a new player take the button?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2013, 06:31:57 AM »
Hi Steven:

I had suggested this clarification recognizing that some venues give "new" players a specific (randomly assigned) seat assignment before being seated (e.g. a seat card, a computer slip, etc.), whereas other venues will seat a player at a particular table without having pre-assigned a seat (particularly when only a few tables are employed). In that context, I was referring to the pre-assignment of a seat as a "dedicated seat" -- thus if he were randomly assigned a specific seat, I suggested it would make sense to treat the player as if he was coming in from a broken table (and thus can take on any position that is not between the button and the SB); otherwise, if he arrives at the table without a pre-assigned seat, you would put him in the worst position to take the BB as if you were balancing tables.

In retrospect, I suppose most people would (and should) be randomly assigning seats for new players anyways, so maybe my suggested 'clarification' would have just been more confusing.  ;)

K


Nick C

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Re: Can a new player take the button?
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2013, 07:03:33 AM »
It is a good question. For all the problems and confusion that this situation brings to the table, why not just let the player take the button? It's not much different than redrawing for seats at a final table (for example). There are times when we are told that we may even get the BB twice in a row, so what's the big deal about getting the button? IMO, it's just another situation that allows a player to miss a hand, and is also the only time a tournament player is dealt out, thus technically altering the proper cards to all others.

 I know there are many that will dispute this, and I'm sure my suggestion will never be adopted. Besides, in a nine handed game, the odds are 88.89% against a player getting that seat.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 07:05:29 AM by Nick C »

Steven

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Re: Can a new player take the button?
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2013, 12:59:43 PM »
Thanks Ken and Nick!

K-Lo, yes I think I was thinking that the dedicated piece was along those lines.

And I too think it would probably be easier not to distinguish between the dedicated and non-dedicated, and just treat the new player as having come from a broken table, thereby allowing  that player to (as per rule 9, Breaking Tables) take any seat including the button, bb, or sb, just NOT between the button and sb, in which case (s)he would sit out a hand and come in behind the button.

I think there would be complications with dictating that a nondedicated player be treated like when rebalancing (as opposed to broken table).
For instance, some venues will seat re-entries by taking them to different tables and sometimes giving them their choice of seats (as opposed to random). Then there may be a new player or re-entry who requires special consideration for seating. And then there is the case of a person filling a table from the standby list(which is really a dedicated seat and would fall in the broken table category anyway). Just to name a few.

All of which leads me to think like you that it would be easier to treat the new player as coming from a broken table and then allow the player
to play that seat according to the Broken Tables rule, which would allow that seat to be the button, sb, BB, or other, just not between button and sb.

One other thought - I agree with previous replies that feel it best to get a new player in the game ASAP. And furthermore, I think it is fundamentally better than to let a player take the button twice in a row when the new player could in fact be the button, making the previous button now be the cutoff. I know, this happens too with a dead button, but this is one less case of giving that player that advantage.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 01:05:19 PM by Steven »

K-Lo

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Re: Can a new player take the button?
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2013, 02:07:17 PM »
I think if you just randomly assign seats to new players and treat them as coming from a broken table as you said, there are no issues. I would never give players their choice of seat though, for the record.  There are so many things that can go wrong with that....

Steven

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Re: Can a new player take the button?
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2013, 03:35:58 PM »
Deep into the re entry period, sometimes 4 hours for a large tournament, I don't believe the cashier software is keeping track of all open seats.
The ones I see then assign a token "99" and then let a floor perso lead the player to a new seat. Like I said before, they are sometimes pretty lenient about where to lead the person! Not sure how the randomization would occur here anyway. Seems that all open seats would need to be accounted for and then apply a randomization algorithm which seems like a bit of an overkill. Or like K-Lo originally alluded to you could find where the "rebalance" could occur, this could get complicated if multiple players start to renter together... Just pondering!
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 03:58:50 PM by Steven »

K-Lo

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Re: Can a new player take the button?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2013, 04:41:27 PM »
That is kind of what I was saying... If you are just bringing a player to the table and he hasn't been assigned a fix seat, putting him in the worst position (I.e.next to be the big blind) at least represents a consistent approach. If you have more than one player coming to the table, you can seat them all in the same way based on the order they registered.  Even if it is not purely random, taking into account all empty seats, there does need to be an objective method.  Otherwise you have players negotiating with the TD to seat them to the left of the big stacks, etc.

Tristan

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Re: Can a new player take the button?
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2013, 09:10:58 PM »
I use the Bravo system to assign seats randomly at the cashier for the start of a tournament.  After the tournament is underway and the initial seats have been assigned, I have re-entries and late entries draw a random seat card from the available open seats.
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Guillaume Gleize

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Re: Can a new player take the button?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2013, 04:16:13 AM »
Hello,

For me here the new player randomly sitting at place 1 get the button and plays immediatly.

This because he do not break my three main "check points":

1) The BB muts advance one player with each new hand whatever happens behind it (that's OK here).
2) Never empeach the old SB to be the last to speak on the new hand (no problem here: he bursted).
3) Rebuilt as quickly as possible the "blind train": BB-SB-B (no problem here: the SB "wagon" is replaced).
(To be said about this check 3: Sometimes it takes 2 hands to rebuild the "blind train". Even not here).

So the new player can play at button here without breaking our three "check points". Those three "check points" allows my guys and me to manage quickly anyone of those hundreds special blinds situations without having to list them in some boring heavy rulebook.

IMAO - GG  
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 04:18:53 AM by Guillaume Gleize »

Nick C

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Re: Can a new player take the button?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2013, 07:13:21 AM »
Guillaume,

 You agree with me! Why not? Makes life easier for everyone.