Author Topic: All-in Player Leaves Table  (Read 5888 times)

Pete F

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All-in Player Leaves Table
« on: February 19, 2013, 12:27:12 PM »
I read the post on the last (All-in Player Leaves Table) Topic and respect a lot of it and agree with the remaining player at the table wins the pot. I want to post this for some feed back on what everyone thinks about this solution. The all-in players hand gets turned up to determine who wins the pot. If the the all-in player wins the pot, it can not be awarded to him since he's not there and the chips get taken out of play. :-\

Pete F

Tristan

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Re: All-in Player Leaves Table
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2013, 04:25:33 PM »
I like it.  In compliance with all rules and it prevents chip dumping.
Tristan
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Nick C

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Re: All-in Player Leaves Table
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2013, 05:54:57 PM »
Pete F,
 I also agree that the absent player should not get the pot.

 

Nick C

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Re: All-in Player Leaves Table
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2013, 01:25:28 AM »
Pete F,

 Lets take another look at the solution you suggested (and Tristan and I agreed to). I agree that the absent player should not get the pot but, are you suggesting that all of the chips he would have won be removed if his hand were best? I also think we might have to consider when he left the table. If he left before the cards were dealt shouldn't his hand be mucked before any action takes place? e.g. TDA # 26 At your seat & #27 Action Pending.

 If he leaves the table; who turns his cards over? We had a bit of a discussion about this at the last summit and it was never really settled. I know that proper dealer procedure does not allow the dealer to turn over any players cards.

 Here's a good one you may not have looked at, the rule #'s have changed: http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=26.0
 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 08:22:12 AM by Nick C »

K-Lo

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Re: All-in Player Leaves Table
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2013, 08:04:33 AM »
I think we agree that if the player is not at his seat when all the cards are initially dealt, his hand is dead, even if he is all-in.

The tricky question is - if for some reason the all-in player leaves the table after the initial deal, under what circumstances will we rule the hand dead?  Are we permitted to turn the cards over?  Are there any situations where we remove chips from play?  We have the At Your Seat rule, but it doesn't go as far to say what should happen if the rule is broken mid-hand.  Here are my thoughts on these topics:

When is a hand dead?

First, I think that it is very important that the dealer and TD step-in when it looks like the all-in player wants to leave mid-hand, and ensure that the all-in player remains at the table until the hand is concluded, whenever possible.  We do this to protect others in the tournament by making sure the hand plays out "normally", and that the best hand wins the pot, whoever might hold it.   

If, however, the player still manages to leave the table (e.g. he ignores your warnings and just leaves, or he leaves so quickly before you have a chance to stop him), he has surrendered the hand and rights to the pot, and his hand should be declared dead.

Turning cards over

In tournament play, we have a rule that an all-in hand must be turned face up at showdown.  If a player is not at his seat during the initial deal, his hand is dead and in my view, the cards can be mucked right away - they do not need to be saved to be turned up at showdown, although some TDs will prefer to save the cards and show them later anyways.   If, on the other hand, the player leaves his seat after the initial deal, his hand is still dead, but the cards should be opened at the end of the hand, to ensure that there was no chip dumping.  Note that if the all-in player is not at his seat at the initial deal, it is highly unlikely that he is chip dumping, at least not to a specific individual since the action has yet to begin.  If he leaves mid-hand, however, the possibility of chip dumping becomes more real, and thus it becomes more important for the hand to be shown.

It is true that, in general, in accordance with standard dealing procedure, the dealer should never turn over a hand for a player.  We are taught this as dealers and TDs from an early age.  :P  However, I feel that this is a red herring, and a lot of TDs get bogged down by this procedural point and allow it to muddy their decision making. 

If the hand is already dead, and we are in an all-in situation, the TD should have every right to expose the hand!  If we were to think about 'first principles' or back to the historical basis for some of these customs, such as not tabling a hand for a player, I think things becomes clearer.  In my view, dealers should not table a live hand for a player, not only because the player must be 'in' the hand to compete for the pot, but it is also for game security - you do not want the dealer to be accused of swapping out a card by either the player (e.g. "I know I had pocket Aces, but after you turned it over, now it is A-3!") or the opponent (e.g. "how do I know that the dealer didn't just plant his friend the winning hand?").  If a hand is already dead, avoiding these accusations of impropriety is no longer an issue, so we should not feel like we are breaking some sort of law by exposing dead cards if and when we are required to do so by the rules.

Removing chips from play

While I appreciate the intent behind the original post, I do not think that it is necessary to take the chips out of play in the circumstance described.  If the player is not at his seat during the initial deal, his hand is dead, it goes into muck, and the chips (which will be equal or less than the BB) are brought into the centre of the table (e.g. with the antes).  All players at the table have an equal chance of winning this dead money - there is no unfairness here. 

If, on the other hand, the player leaves mid-deal with others having already acted, his hand is still dead, and the dead cards will be turned over at the end of the hand.  The primary purpose should be to see if the hand was abandoned intentionally in order to dump chips to the remaining opponent.  If chip dumping does not appear likely (this may require assessing the state of the board at the point where the player left the table), the remaining opponent wins the pot even if the all-in player's hand would ultimately have won.  Only if it appears that there was an attempt at chip dumping, would the chips come out of play (essentially the absent player is disqualified for chip dumping), and the remaining opponent could potentially be disqualified as well if there is evidence or history to suggest that he was a knowing participant in a chip dumping scheme.

In general, I think that chips should only be taken out of play under exceptional circumstances.  I feel that when you take chips out of play, you potentially put players at the table at a disadvantage relative to other players in the tournament because those chips are no longer up for grabs at that table, which limits the amount of chips that any one player can win and take with them when the table breaks.

chet

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Re: All-in Player Leaves Table
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2013, 10:47:25 AM »
Kind of early in the year, but I'll throw K-Lo's very well written and thought out post below into the mix for "Post of the Year".

Chet

Tristan

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Re: All-in Player Leaves Table
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2013, 02:06:36 PM »
Kind of early in the year, but I'll throw K-Lo's very well written and thought out post below into the mix for "Post of the Year".

Chet

Agreed, well written K-Lo!

I really only have one concern with it.  I don't like a player winning chips that he/she didn't win.  I agree that we disadvantage the table by taking the chips out of play, but don't we also disadvantage the other players at the table by awarding chips to a player who had the losing hand?  And if that player goes on to win the tournament, couldn't it look like we gave them an undue advantage?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 02:07:49 PM by Tristan »
Tristan
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chet

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Re: All-in Player Leaves Table
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2013, 04:30:55 PM »
Tristan:

Your point is well taken, but it seems to me that no matter what you do, remove the chips/leave the chips, you are going to make someone unhappy.  I guess I would like to see the rule result in some "standard(s)" which I think K-Lo did an excellent job of developing.  So, if you accept his solution as the "standard", then it is up to the TD to find a justification (TDA Rule 1?) for any deviation. 

I guess the long and short is that you will probably be damned if you remove and damned if you don't.  But at least with a "standard" to start from you can blame the "Damn Rule"  :)

Chet

Nick C

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Re: All-in Player Leaves Table
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2013, 08:34:49 PM »
Ken,

 Great post...I agree that a standard must be enforced. Any player deliberately leaving the table before the last card is dealt to the button, has a dead hand, even if he is all-in on a blind. Any other all-in situation can never allow a player to leave the game until the showdown is complete.

 I also agree that only the owner of the hand may table his cards at the showdown. Therefore, the hand of an absent player may only be tabled by the floor, never the dealer.

 

K-Lo

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Re: All-in Player Leaves Table
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2013, 11:39:40 PM »
Ha ha.  Thanks guys.  :)

Tristan, I see your point, but I'm not sure it's 100% accurate to characterize the situation as the player winning chips that he/she didn't win.  He did win the hand by virtue of being the last person standing! In any event, I think the concern raised is valid and certainly underscores the importance of keeping the player at the table while his hand is still live.

I believe that it wasn't always this way. At one time, I think the hand of an absent person, if all-in, still played;  such that the hand would be tabled by the dealer/floor and if the hand is the winner, that seat would still win the pot and the absent player would continue to be blinded down again until eventually he picks up a losing hand when all-in.  But this approach has gone out of favor I believe, favoring approaches along the lines of the At Your Seat rule instead.  Even the old approach though, I think, would be better than taking the chips off the table altogether: at least if you were to give the chips back to the absentee 'winner', the players at the table could still win them back, albeit slowly.

In any event, we are talking about situations that should be extremely rare - someone leaves the table after the initial deal and there has been action, and the dealers and players try to stop him from leaving but are unsuccessful, and the player happens to be all-in but hadn't yet tabled his hand, and the player ends up winning, and there is no apparent chip dumping going on.  So I guess we need to ask should the default be to remove the chips from play, or to award the chips to the last player standing?  I think it is probably easier to work with the latter (at least within the confines of the current rules), no?

Tristan

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Re: All-in Player Leaves Table
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2013, 12:56:00 AM »
Tristan:
I guess I would like to see the rule result in some "standard(s)" which I think K-Lo did an excellent job of developing.

True!

In any event, we are talking about situations that should be extremely rare - someone leaves the table after the initial deal and there has been action, and the dealers and players try to stop him from leaving but are unsuccessful, and the player happens to be all-in but hadn't yet tabled his hand, and the player ends up winning, and there is no apparent chip dumping going on. 

Very true!

At one time, I think the hand of an absent person, if all-in, still played;  such that the hand would be tabled by the dealer/floor and if the hand is the winner, that seat would still win the pot and the absent player would continue to be blinded down again until eventually he picks up a losing hand when all-in.  But this approach has gone out of favor I believe, favoring approaches along the lines of the At Your Seat rule instead.  Even the old approach though, I think, would be better than taking the chips off the table altogether: at least if you were to give the chips back to the absentee 'winner', the players at the table could still win them back, albeit slowly.

I like this.  The hand is played to an all-in situation, player abandons hand, has the best hand, wins, but is not allowed to play and gets blinded out.

But like it was said, it is rare situation and it seems like you are all in agreement (which is also a rare situation!) with awarding them to the remaining player so... I'm alright with that  ;)
Tristan
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Nick C

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Re: All-in Player Leaves Table
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2013, 05:44:56 PM »
Tristan,

 If you like Ken's suggestion; to blind off the absent player that abandoned his hand and won. You might like this:

 Speed up the distribution of the chips by putting the equivalent of the BB into the pot on every deal instead of waiting for the blinds to come around?

K-Lo

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Re: All-in Player Leaves Table
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2013, 02:53:21 PM »
Just to clarify, it wasn't my suggestion... They just used to allow the absent player's hand to play, and then get blinded off.  But the player could come back and continue playing!  Obvious issue - players would just leave the table saying they were nervous or whatever, and the other player could not get a read.

So the idea of leaving the chips on the table but not allowing the player to play with them anymore is an interesting idea, but not mine! :)