Author Topic: Moving big blind  (Read 7739 times)

Tristan

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Moving big blind
« on: February 13, 2013, 10:33:15 AM »
Not really a question, just provoked a little thought as I hadn't looked at it this way before.

The situation: Dealer had the cards in the hand ready to deal, the TD needed to balance tables.  Pulled the big blind and moved them to the short table. 

Player later asks, if the first riffle (or pushing the button on the shuffler) indicates the start of a hand, why shouldn't it be the next big blind aka the UTG player that has to move.

Tristan
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K-Lo

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Re: Moving big blind
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 01:04:21 PM »
I would explain that the riffle indicating the start of a new hand only applies to whether a hand should be played at one blind level or another.  For issues not relating to blind levels, the first riffle 'trigger' is not relevant.  There's another thread on here somewhere where the relevance (or more specifically, the irrelevance ) of the riffle to a different situation was discussed... I can't seem to recall what it was about off the top of my head though.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 01:05:22 PM by K-Lo »

chet

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Re: Moving big blind
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 01:17:12 PM »
Tristan:

By definition a new hand starts upon the first riffle of the cards.  TDA Rule 8 says, in part, In flop and mixed games when balancing tables, the player who will be big blind next will be moved....(emphasis added).  Therefore, I believe that the UTG player should have been the player to move.  

I guess I have to disagree with K-Lo as to the applicability of Rule 19.  If we are going to define when a new hand starts, taking the position that the definition only applies to changes in levels and not to other situations just opens a can of worms.  If we are going to define something, then I am in favor of one definition being used consistently. 

In my opinion, the player has a legitimate issue, although in MT events, I doubt it will make a whole lot of difference.  In small tavern or bar events, where there are only 2 or 3 tables to begin with, I expect the effect might be much different.

Chet

K-Lo

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Re: Moving big blind
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 02:01:26 PM »
This issue has come up in the past... All I can say is that either way is probably fine so long as you do it consistently: http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=675.0

I can't remember the source of my comment re: the first riffle... Other than blind levels and as a deadline for ruling appeals, I tend to apply the first riffle 'trigger' more restrictively.  After all, Rule 19 does have a very specific header, and that's where the first riffle is mentioned, although I wouldn't hold it against anyone if they found other applications for it. 

What I would say, however, is that if you are of the view that the hand has already started, you should not then be moving the utg player until the hand is complete.  He is entitled to play that hand, and if someone gets eliminated, then you would not need to balance.  However, I prefer to simply move the 'current' big blind so long as the cards have not been dealt out, so as not to delay the game (and i don't want to stand there and wait.)

Tristan

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Re: Moving big blind
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 02:15:22 PM »
I would explain that the riffle indicating the start of a new hand only applies to whether a hand should be played at one blind level or another.  For issues not relating to blind levels, the first riffle 'trigger' is not relevant.  There's another thread on here somewhere where the relevance (or more specifically, the irrelevance ) of the riffle to a different situation was discussed... I can't seem to recall what it was about off the top of my head though.

Yeah, that is what I told him.  It was only an issue because he got moved and busted out...was looking for a place to put the blame.  

It was funny though because the first thing he asked me is when a hand technically begins.  He said, "Does the hand begin when the blinds are placed out, when the dealer washes, when the dealer cuts, when they riffle, or when the pick up the cards to deal?"  I just assumed he was referring to the blind increases, so I told him the first riffle or when they push the button on the shuffler.  That was when he threw me the curve ball and I had to backtrack lol.

I would have to say I still think the BB is the correct move.  Simply because if the hand already is technically started, it should play out and, like K-Lo said, the UTG is then entitled to play it.  If I have a table that is 3 short and they are waiting, I would prefer to move a player as soon as possible and not wait for a hand to play out if I can help it.

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K-Lo

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Re: Moving big blind
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2013, 02:26:04 PM »
I thought of another similar situation.  Table is 5 handed, they have been told by the floor to keep going.  The last hand has already ended.  The dealer is in the middle of his shuffling sequence, people are still chit chatting, texting on their phones, etc.  the dealer finishes his shuffle, and is about to put out the cut card and call for antes and blinds etc.  At that moment, players from a broken table arrive.

I would guess that most TDs would have the players seated, post the antes and blinds, and continue the hand with a full table. 

If we interpret "the hand begins with the first riffle" as meaning the entire hand must be played out with all the same players who were at the table when the riffle occurred, no more and no less, then technically we should wait until that whole hand is played out before the players from the broken table could be seated to resume play.  I don't think that is practical.  We also want the players from a different table to resume play as soon as possible.  Just because the hand has "begun" for the purposes of identifying the applicable blind level, doesn't mean we cannot remove or add players to the hand before the cards are dealt out, IMO.

Tristan

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Re: Moving big blind
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2013, 02:51:53 PM »
Yeah, and in that situation, if the blinds went up while people were getting in their seats, I would allow the hand to still play out at the previous blind level after everyone was in and situated. 
Tristan
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Nick C

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Re: Moving big blind
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2013, 03:03:05 PM »
Ken,

 Your method would be more practical but, I believe the hand should be played out with the short table. This might not be a valid reason but it's as close as I can relate:
 When dealer's are being pushed through the dealer rotation, once a seated dealer begins the first riffle he must complete that deal. The seated dealer can not "stall" waiting for the next dealer to replace him, (so he can get the hell out of this rotten game), and move to the main game sooner. Although, I'm not sure if this would apply for tournaments.

K-Lo

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Re: Moving big blind
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2013, 04:56:37 PM »
Nick... I can see your point for cash games, but I don't think it is what happens in most tournaments.  You especially don't want the incoming players to stand around and wait until the hand is over, which could take 5-10 minutes,  In cash, there are no blind levels to worry about.  I have to agree with Tristan on all points.

Nick C

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Re: Moving big blind
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2013, 06:00:35 PM »
Ken,

 I can agree that tournaments are very different from cash games. I can always remember the complaints just about every time you raise the limits, or stick someone in a seat that's too close to the blinds! ::)  Like Tristan said, "some player's have to blame something, or someone when they lose." They rarely blame their bad play.

K-Lo

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Re: Moving big blind
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2013, 08:13:24 PM »
Like Tristan said, "some player's have to blame something, or someone when they lose." They rarely blame their bad play.

So, so true.  ::)

Stuart Murray

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Re: Moving big blind
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2013, 11:59:14 AM »
Agree with K-Lo, until the first card leaves the deck the hand has not commenced (it has however started by the first riffle) as the hand has not yet commenced I take the Big Blind and the UTG player assumes the BB position instead at that table.