Poll

How should the TD Rule?

Player C may call, raise, or fold and retract the 2,000.
Player C may place out 5,000 more and call, or fold and forfeit the 2,000.
Player C must call the full 7,000.

Author Topic: Player was not aware of raise amount. How should TD Rule?  (Read 33688 times)

K-Lo

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Re: Player was not aware of raise amount. How should TD Rule?
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2013, 05:31:37 PM »
Hi Tristan:

As usual, I really like your reasoning.

I do understand not wanting to tie down the hands of the TD with rules that are too specific.  In fact, I think the TDA rules are purposely more general in nature so as to accommodate minor variations in policy.  But I do think there is some value in providing at least some discretionary language to show that the TD can consider various factors when applying Rule 1.  E.g. rule 1 MAY apply at TD's discretion, particularly in situations where the opponent's bet is not in clear view, or where it is otherwise reasonable to conclude that the caller was deceived as to the nature or the amount of the wager.  I don't think this ties the TD down in any way, and in fact, it makes the decisions that are exceptions to the general rule more transparent.  I fear that without such a qualification, the rule seems to effeectively require too high of a standard in order for an exception to be made.  

With respect to the two player example, I have mixed feelings about it.  I see what you are saying, but I do feel there is a difference between sharing what is effectively the penalty at the end of the hand (if the caller wins, the all-in has no recourse and vice-versa), and sharing responsibility to prevent an irregularity from occurring.  In your example, the caller only has an advantage in both cases IF when the dealer is asked for a count, the bettor does not intervene to confirm the amount.  I do feel that all parties at the table, but especially the players involved in the pot, have a shared responsibility to confirm the accuracy of the dealer's count before the hand is played out.  There is no incentive now for the bettor to correct an incorrect count from the dealer, and I think that responsibility should be shared.  Now occasionally, there may be situations where the caller may get a break when an incorrect count of a dealer is relied upon and where the bettor, if he chooses not to help verify the count, may be liable for more; however, I am not so certain that this "premium" is unjustified - the caller may be at the mercy of the dealer to receive a correct count (the dealer is supposed to be impartial) and bears a risk when relying on that count... The bettor on the other hand bore no risk, as his bet did not depend in any way on misinformation from a dealer.  In fact, I wonder if the result is any different from what happens when the caller asks the dealer for a count, it is given without correction from the bettor, the caller puts out the chips for the call, and the dealer scoops it all together into the main pot before continuing (which is often done)... If the call amount was actually short, isn't the result the same?

An interesting discussion, I must say.  I doubt we'll be able to get broad-based support for the EPT-type wording anyways, but a nice compromise would be a little clarity on when rule 1 might apply.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 05:56:38 PM by K-Lo »

Nick C

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Re: Player was not aware of raise amount. How should TD Rule?
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2013, 09:43:52 PM »
I have a question for everyone. How did you handle similar situations before Accepted Action? ??? Let's look at Mike Bishop's example:
Player A "All-in" > pushes chips
Player B: How much is there? Dealer: 96K "Okay I call"
Player C: How much? Dealer: Whoops, looks like 101K
Add to that the occasion when the final count is further off... 106K on the final countdown.



 

Tristan

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Re: Player was not aware of raise amount. How should TD Rule?
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2013, 10:22:27 AM »
Good points K-Lo.  Some clarifications might be in order when it comes to AA. 

I have a tough time seeing the bettor and the caller as being much different in the two person scenario.  How many times have you seen a player not be able to count their own chips?  It is painfully obvious at times when you bag and tag or ask for individual chip counts to post.

Both players are focused on each other and trying to figure out their pot odds, outs, and tells from the other player.

Both players are relying on the card room professional for their count. (Dealer)

Human nature prevents us from wanting to look stupid in front of other people.  Even if the bettor or the caller think the amount presented doesn't match with what the dealer says, they aren't going to speak up unless they are quite sure.  And this is happening at a time when they both are very distracted.

So, I guess, what I am trying to say is that if we implement things to protect the caller in situations where they lost and there was an incorrect count by the dealer, then we need to implement things to protect the bettor when the situation is reversed.  Doing that would require dealers to re-break down all-ins that lose to make sure the amount was correct with what they stated...and that just sounds labor intensive.

So, I think it is best we leave it like it is, but just add a little more in clarification.

When a player, in turn, asks for a count on a bet or raise, the dealer will clearly break down the bet into easily countable stacks (4, 5, or 20 chip).  If the dealer then states an incorrect amount, no player will have any recourse as the bets were clearly displayed.  All players can protect themselves by visually verifying the amount and not relying only on the amount verbalized by the dealer.

Something like that would be great, but training the dealers to break down bets like that is not really a TDA thing.  More of an in-house issue.



« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 12:11:48 PM by Tristan »
Tristan
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K-Lo

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Re: Player was not aware of raise amount. How should TD Rule?
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2013, 12:09:51 PM »
So, I think it is best we leave it like it is, but just add a little more in clarification.

When a player, in turn, asks for a count on a bet or raise, the dealer will clearly break down the bet into easily countable stacks (4, 5, or 20 chip).  If the dealer then states an incorrect amount, no player will have any recourse as the bets were clearly displayed.  All players can protect themselves by visually verifying the amount and not relying only on the amount verbalized by the dealer.

Something like that would be great, but training the dealers to break down bets like that is not really a TDA thing.  More of an in-house issue.

Yes, that is the essence of the type of relief that I think would be appropriate.

chet

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Re: Player was not aware of raise amount. How should TD Rule?
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2013, 06:15:39 PM »
Tristan and K-Lo:

The word "can" is not an enforceable term.  It merely means that something is possible, not that something should be done.  Therefore, I suggest that the word "can" in the last sentence of Tristan's suggested language be changed to "shall" a term which is enforceable and clearly puts the responsibility on the player.

Chet

K-Lo

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Re: Player was not aware of raise amount. How should TD Rule?
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2013, 09:07:48 PM »
Tristan and K-Lo:

The word "can" is not an enforceable term.  It merely means that something is possible, not that something should be done.  Therefore, I suggest that the word "can" in the last sentence of Tristan's suggested language be changed to "shall" a term which is enforceable and clearly puts the responsibility on the player.

Chet

Yes!

Tristan

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Re: Player was not aware of raise amount. How should TD Rule?
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2013, 10:07:18 PM »
Good point Chet!
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K-Lo

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Re: Player was not aware of raise amount. How should TD Rule?
« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2013, 05:57:22 PM »
OK... more on the "undercall"...

We've been debating whether or not players can still be given the option to "top-up" an undercall or surrender the amount already in the pot, or whether there is no longer such an option to give given the introduction of Accepted Action.  Most (but not all) of us, would rarely even considering allowing a full retraction of the bet, despite being a clear option in Robert's Rules.

Recently, Matt S tweeted the following:

Guy bets 3700. I throw 1k chip in. Do I have to complete or can I fold & lose my 1K?<~Yes, cannot raise & pay attention!

Fair enough, it would appear that the "option" is still alive, at least according to Matt.

In contrast, there is this scenario:

Seat 6 says "raise it to 130K" and pushes out the 130K, Dealer also declares the raise

Seat 1 (who is wearing ear phones) now pitches in 10K more, Dealer now points out the 130K raise made by Seat 6


and Steve Frezer responded:

"Accepted action. There are no options... He has to pay attention, cant make the nice guy ruling, it will come back and bite ya."

All I am saying is... yes... it would be nice to have some consensus on whether any options are available and under what conditions.

Nick C

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Re: Player was not aware of raise amount. How should TD Rule?
« Reply #53 on: February 10, 2013, 06:33:25 PM »
I asked a question on reply #46. How would you rule before Accepted Action?

Ken, I'm sorry but I don't understand Matt's tweet ??? I'm missing too much information on this one. Why would I toss a 1K chip on a 3700 bet?
I'm sure I can fold.
The question is: Can I fold and withdraw my 1K?
                       Can I raise?
                       Do I have to leave the 1K in the pot, if I don't want to call?
Was the question answered?   

Back to my question. Before AA what would you rule?

Tristan

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Re: Player was not aware of raise amount. How should TD Rule?
« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2013, 06:49:17 PM »
Can I fold and withdraw my 1K?

I say no.  Money placed in the pot, in turn, must stay in the pot.

Can I raise?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: "36:   Methods of Raising
In no-limit or pot-limit, a raise must be made by (1) placing the full amount in the pot in one motion; or (2) verbally declaring the full amount prior to the initial placement of chips into the pot; or (3) verbally declaring “raise” prior to the placement of the amount to call into the pot and then completing the action with one additional motion. It is the player’s responsibility to make his intentions clear."

Placing an undercall in the pot and then raising does not fit any of these allowable methods of raising.  That is also a string bet.

Do I have to leave the 1K in the pot, if I don't want to call?

Pretty much the same as your first question.  Money placed in the pot, in turn, must stay in the pot.  Yes, you have to leave it in.
Tristan
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K-Lo

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Re: Player was not aware of raise amount. How should TD Rule?
« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2013, 07:01:28 PM »
The real question is whether the player throwing 1K in should be forced to call 3700 under the guise of Accepted Action, with no option to leave in the 1K and fold?  I would have answered the same as Matt and Tristan prior to AA.. now not sure anymore.

Tristan

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Re: Player was not aware of raise amount. How should TD Rule?
« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2013, 07:30:12 PM »
If they said call, and then threw out the 1k...I would make them call.

If they throw out 1k without saying call, I'd give the option to chip up or fold and sacrifice the 1k.



I understand what you mean though...  AA can be interpreted in a more strict way.
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Nick C

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Re: Player was not aware of raise amount. How should TD Rule?
« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2013, 08:51:25 PM »
Hey Ken, congratulations on your 500th post!

Okay, So the way I see everyone's interpretation of AA, there is no way in hell to ever retract an incorrect amount placed in the pot in turn. :o

 Somehow, it seems as if I've lost the support of several members that at one time thought there was something that "reeked" about a player being forced to surrender a short bet, or even worse...call the unclear bet even if given the wrong count by the dealer ::)

 If the above is true, I suggest the following change be made:

Accepted Action   Any  player (acting in turn) calling a bet or raise must be certain of their action, or verbal declaration, because they are obligated to call the exact amount no matter what!

Now that's the way a rule should be written. It's terrible...but very clear. :D
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 09:25:12 PM by Nick C »

K-Lo

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Re: Player was not aware of raise amount. How should TD Rule?
« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2013, 10:21:13 PM »
Hey Ken, congratulations on your 500th post!

Okay, So the way I see everyone's interpretation of AA, there is no way in hell to ever retract an incorrect amount placed in the pot in turn. :o

 Somehow, it seems as if I've lost the support of several members that at one time thought there was something that "reeked" about a player being forced to surrender a short bet, or even worse...call the unclear bet even if given the wrong count by the dealer ::)

Thanks, Nick.  I hadn't even noticed.  Maybe it will be a lucky post.

I personally think that TDs should retain the discretion to provide an option to top-up or fold, and to possibly retract incorrect amounts altogether.  We should be able to use our judgment to determine what seems reasonable given the circumstances.  In this regard, I believe we do share the same criticisms of this rule.  Unfortunately, I just see that the trend at the "high levels" of the game is towards applying rules like AA very strictly -- and although I feel somewhat obliged to tow the party line if that is really where things are going, I feel that it is a bit shortsighted as it certainly doesn't serve novice players very well. 

Tristan

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Re: Player was not aware of raise amount. How should TD Rule?
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2013, 01:58:42 PM »
There is always the option for the TD to do what they feel is the most fair and best for the game!  :)

Times when I have allowed the player to retract:
- When the dealer tells me he was leaning in the way, obstructing seat 1's view and no bet was stated.
- When a player went all-in, did not push out chips, and the dealer said (due to noise) that the player most likely could not have heard.
- Probably a few others, but I cannot remember off the top of my head.

Basically any time I feel the player was not responsible.  But these times are very rare.  Maybe 1 in 100 or 1 in 50?

I will not make an exception for headphones.  It is the player's choice to wear them, and if they miss action because of it...it is their own fault.

I will not make an exception for a player who had visual or verbal proof and was not paying attention.  If they don't want to pay attention, that is their choice.

So 98%-99% of the time, I will rule as I said above.  1%-2% of the time, I feel that fairness allows a different call.
Tristan
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