Showdown Order, Who Show's First, Rule 12, etc.

[MikeB]

[The following suggestion was submitted today by a TDA member. Please feel free to comment / reply]:

Message Body:
If a player moves all in and another player raises thus eliminating the rest of the field on the flop, who should show first. This is the "final betting" round(but is not the river). I contend that the player making the last aggressive action should show first. There seems to be large disagreements in this situation.  I think rule #12 needs more clarification, as does the definition of "last round of betting".

[Nick C]

Great question. I would rule that the all-in player must showdown his hand first. I can also understand where this could cause differing opinions. I guess we should consider a way to clarify TDA #12. This, of course, will depend on which player our rule-makers decided on.

[MikeB]

[FWIW, My original reply to the post:]

Hello ______:

Thanks very much for the suggested clarification. Your message has been posted anonymously on the Poker TDA Forum in the category "Suggestions for New Rules and Amendments" at the following link: http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=790.0.

I would note that your question involves an all-in situation which is addressed in Rule 11 (Face Up for All-Ins), not Rule 12 which addresses non all-in showdowns. In your all-in situation both of the remaining hands (the all-in and the caller) should be turned face up at once since all betting action is finished for the hand. Don't wait until all remaining board cards are dealt out.

Nonetheless, your point that there could be some uncertainty about what is meant by the "final betting round" in Rule 12 is important. What is intended is the last possible betting round before the showdown (i.e.: the river in THE or 7th street in 7-stud), regardless of whether actual bets are made or not on that round. [if bets are made on that final round, then it's the last aggressive action who may be required to show first if the players don't spontaneously table their cards... if no bets are made on that round, then it's the 1st player to the left of the dealer button.]

Thanks alot for the question and suggestion!

[Nick C]

Mike:

 In TDA #12 do you think it might be more clear if we specifically stated; In a non-all-in showdown, the player that initiated the last aggressive action on the final betting round will be first to table their hand. If there is no bet on the final round, the first player that checked will show first, and so on clockwise.

 This would apply to all games; stud and razz as well as all button games.

 As far as TDA #11; we have discussed problems with this rule in the past. Telling players they must turn their cards simultaneously will not work. There is a specific order of showdown that must be enforced whenever any player refuses to "undress" or showdown their hand. I've always felt that the current rule would only apply when action was head to head.

 The all-in situation that is in question is not covered in TDA #11.

 Without clarification, what is the answer? Who shows first? The all-in, or the player that raised the all-in and left the action heads up?

 I rule that the all-in player shows first because the opposing player's raise (after eliminating the other player's) turned out to be a call.

 That's how I see it.    Good question.