Author Topic: House Rule change from TDA rule #50 & #52  (Read 7199 times)

RockyPhillips

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 15
House Rule change from TDA rule #50 & #52
« on: November 13, 2012, 06:20:35 AM »
Hi guys, to start let me say I enjoy reading the banter between you and your onions as expressed in the TDA Rules Questions.

My question is for the purpose of our poker league (80 to 100) players per event. For our purpose I would like to alter slightly rule #50 & #52 see below, changes are bold and in italics. Our league is self dealt and I as TD (TDA Certified) I also play in the games. My change for our purpose only, is regarding rule #52 after warning a player that they may not expose cards with action pending (Iím talking about a player who opens hand heads-up to gage a players reaction before calling) I would like to have the ability when necessary to kill an exposed hand. The reason for this is due to my playing as well as being TD it is far easier for me to kill a hand then it is to administer missed hand penalties. Iím talking about a player that has been warned and knows better than to expose live cards. I know that I can have this included as a house rule; I would just like to hear your onions before doing so. Thank you

YRPL Rule (based on TDA with change)
Etiquette & Penalties

50: Penalties and Disqualification
A penalty may be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending, throws a card off the table, violates the one-player-to-a-hand rule, or similar incidents occur. Penalties will be invoked in cases of soft play, abuse, disruptive behavior, or cheating. Penalties available to the TD include verbal warnings, a dead hand, ďmissed handĒ penalties, and disqualification. Except for a one or two hand penalty, missed hand penalties will be assessed as follows: The offender will miss one hand for every player, including the offender, multiplied by the number of rounds specified in the penalty. For the period of the penalty, the offender shall remain away from the table but will continue to be dealt in. The TD can assess a 1 or 2 hand penalty, 1-, 2-, 3-, or 4-round penalties or disqualification. A player who is disqualified shall have his or her chips removed from play. Repeat infractions are subject to escalating penalties.

52: Exposing Cards
A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but may not have a dead hand at the TDís discretion. Repeated violations will result in penalties including the possibilities of a dead hand at the TDís discretion. (Removed: Penalty will begin at the end of the hand)

K-Lo

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 869
  • @AskTheTD on Twitter
    • Ask the Tournament Director
Re: House Rule change from TDA rule #50 & #52
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2012, 01:38:06 PM »
Hi Rocky:

You certainly can introduce a house rule such as the one that you propose for administrative expedience;  however, as you know, the trend in tournament direction these days is not to kill hands but to assess an appropriate penalty given the infraction.

If your players know that it is a house rule, then hopefully they won't go berserk when they play elsewhere and start arguing that an opponent's hand should be killed because that's what they are used to.  Other than that, if you think modifying the house rule (to reflect what was essentially the old rule) is the most effective way to deal with this problem, then you have to do what you have to do. :)

K

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3344
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: House Rule change from TDA rule #50 & #52
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2012, 06:24:00 AM »
Hello Rocky,

 I don't know if you will accomplish your goal with the changes you've made. You have every right to implement your own house rules and still be in compliance with the TDA. However, I feel that your added line for TDA # 52 is contradicting.

  If I may suggest: Perhaps in #50 you might add:....Penalties will be assessed as follows: Penalties available to the tournament director include verbal warnings, "missed hand" penalties, up to and including possible disqualification from the tournament, and in the case of " intentional hand exposure" the offending player's action will constitute a "fold," and elimination from play.

 I'm just trying to give another idea, even though I am not in favor of killing a hand (for exposure) when play is head-to-head. If you can keep your player's from going berserk (stealing Ken's line), maybe you can pull it off :-\

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
Re: House Rule change from TDA rule #50 & #52
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2012, 08:30:27 AM »
Hi Rocky,

Glag you are enjoying participating in the forum!

I am not so sure that adding house rules would be in compliance with TDA principles, as we (The TDA) have already established that killing a players hand is not in the best interests of tournament poker.  Whilst you are certainly free to make such a change if you wish, I would say that it would likely be better to establish best practice by issuing penalties instead.

Regards
Stuart

Tristan

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 453
Re: House Rule change from TDA rule #50 & #52
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2012, 10:16:44 AM »
I agree with the rest of them.    You can make whatever house rules you would like, but I'm not keen on killing hands if it can be avoided. 

including the possibilities of a dead hand at the TDís discretion

If I was a player, this would scare me.  The TD has a vested interest in the game and now has the power to kill a player's hand.  I'm not saying that is something that you would abuse, but it could be viewed that way.
Tristan
@TristanWilberg on Twitter

chet

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 734
Re: House Rule change from TDA rule #50 & #52
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2012, 04:45:04 PM »
Guys:

I understand Rocky's situation, it is difficult, especially with an event as large as his, when he is also playing to enforce missed hand penalties.  As an alternative what does this group think of going back to the prior penalty method of time, i.e., 20 to 30 minutes being the "base" penalty?  It should be relatively easy to come up with an amount of time that is roughly equal to the number of hands per round.

This should be much easier to enforce and monitor and eliminates the conflict of interest given that Rocky is playing in the same events he is the TD for.

By the way, I only support this idea given the fact that he is both the player and the TD. 

Chet

RockyPhillips

  • TDA Member & Active Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 15
Re: House Rule change from TDA rule #50 & #52
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2012, 07:34:17 AM »
Thank you all for your time and feedback.
Iím wondering why is killing a hand so frond upon, the player has been warned and would be aware that showing his hand with action pending is wrong and could kill his hand at the discretion of the TD. After all giving a missed hand(s) penalty is effectively killing his next hand or possibly more hands, whatís the difference?

At this point having not received the answer I would have liked LOL, Iím going to suck it up and stick with the current TDA ruling but perhaps you can provide your views on the above. Just to be clear this is not something that happens often itís more that I get hung-up on the ruling, if you are not allowed to do it and may get a penalty why then does it not kill your hand as a repeated violation.

K-Lo: Our players for the most part know that rules are different from place to place due to house rulings and are not likely to go ďberserkĒ.
Nick C: Iím not sure I follow you on your last point, I understand you are not in favor of killing the hand but are you saying you are ok with exposing hands when heads up in the hand?
Stuart Murray: I do enjoy it as it provides many variable situations with variable rulings and onions it better prepares me as a TD when similar situations arise.
Tristan: We run a very popular and trendily poker league and I feel I have the complete confidence of the group as TD and player, itís a good group. Due to our tournaments being self-dealt dealing errors happen more than I would like but the players are now for the most part familiar with the corrective action to be taken, I usually get called over just to oversee that it was done correctly.
Chet: A rotation of our table of 10 players is approximately 18 minutes we use two decks when was is being dealt the other is being shuffled a new round starts with the dealer cutting the new deck. Not sure if time would help me though missed hands are likely better as I can assess the penalty one hand two hands an orbit and then go back to my table from there the table can monitor the penalty.

Thanks again cheers!

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
Re: House Rule change from TDA rule #50 & #52
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2012, 09:30:48 AM »
Hi again Rocky,

Killing ones hand can adversely effect the outcome of a) the hand in play and b) the outcome of a tournament, It is now best practice to allow a hand to play to completion - pretty much no matter what the infraction, and the issue a penalty/dsq after the hand - for example two players openly agree to check down a third all-in player,  It would not be best practice to kill these hands, as that will effect the tournament, the hand plays out and the all-in player is eliminated, and then once the hand is complete the two other players are dsq'd from the tourney for collusion.

Hope that helps!

Regards
Stuart

Tristan

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 453
Re: House Rule change from TDA rule #50 & #52
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2012, 02:38:10 PM »
Yeah, what Stuart said!  :P

Killing a player's hand does not just penalize that player, it rewards the other player...which then affects all tournament players potentially.

Example scenario: Player A and Player B both have 100k chips each to start the hand.  By the river each player has invested 50k chips for a total of a 100k pot.  Player A had the nut flush on the turn, but now the river paired the board.  Player B flopped 2 pair, but got counterfeited on the river. 

Player A, a repeat offender, is trying to decide whether to bet out or check and call any bet...he flips up his hand.

Player B is obviously going to fold to any bet after seeing the hand.

You get called to the game...you rule Player A's hand dead.  Now instead of Player A having 150k chips, Player B does. 

Player B goes on to win the tournament.  Would that have happened if you hadn't ruled Player A's hand dead?  Who knows...but you, as the tournament director, just had a major role in the outcome of that tournament.



(I probably could have come up with a better example, since the player who flips their hand is usually the one trying to see if they should call...but you see my point.)
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 02:43:04 PM by Tristan »
Tristan
@TristanWilberg on Twitter

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3344
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: House Rule change from TDA rule #50 & #52
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2012, 03:50:05 PM »
Rocky:

 I understand your frustration.

 My reasoning for the acceptance of exposing cards, when head to head, is simply because there is no chance for collusion. Showing cards, with action pending in a multi-player hand is a serious violation; however, in order to kill a hand, most rule-set's require the hand to be mucked. I think your best bet would be to increase the penalty, (especially) to repeat offenders, or add your own house rule that will clearly indicate that showing any cards, with action pending will result in penalties and a loss of aggressive action. They must check if not facing a bet, and can only call or fold if another player acts.
 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 04:23:47 PM by Nick C »