Author Topic: Action out of turn  (Read 12218 times)

Tristan

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Re: Action out of turn
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2012, 04:09:08 PM »
I would point out this:

http://www.thehendonmob.com/tournament_director2/is_his_hand_dead

Matt Savage says that the hand is dead.
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Nick C

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Re: Action out of turn
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2012, 05:31:41 PM »
Tristan,

 I respect your opinion but I don't always agree with other TD's. I like the idea mentioned where the lapse of time has something to do with the call by the floor, or the answer about each occurrence being situational.

 I believe every hand is live until it hits the muck. There are other's that agree with me. I can see player's refusing to release their cards when you tell them their hand is dead because an OOT bettor induced another player to act, thus killing their hand  ::)  Lot's of luck with that one.

 Bottom line, (IMO) the rules need clarification. Why should so many rules lead to controversy? If what you say is true, why doesn't the rule read as follows: When a proper bettor is skipped and allows significant action to proceed, he may no longer compete for the pot and his hand is dead! Or; When a proper bettor is skipped the action will be backed-up and corrected, unless two or more players have acted after him, in which case the skipped player can not raise when action returns to him.

 I would not oppose either ruling. The current rule does not offer a definitive solution.

Tristan

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Re: Action out of turn
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2012, 03:23:58 PM »
I hear ya Nick.

Here are a few of our card room rules regarding this matter:

Substantial Action (losing your right to initiate action on this round)
If you are not facing a bet and it is your turn to act but for whatever reason you do not act on your hand and two or more players act behind you, you will lose your right to initiate action on this round and your action will be considered a "check".  This action that took place behind you will become binding. Exception:  If the dealer feels that the other players acted too quickly and didn't give you a legitimate chance to act on your hand, then the supervisor can redirect the action back to you, nullifying this "substantial" action.

When may you lose your right to action and have to forfeit this hand?
If you are faced with a bet and have not acted on your hand and allow two or more players to act on their hands behind you, you have lost your right to action and must forfeit the hand and all monies in the pot.

Can't lose your right to action
a.  If any active player or dealer calls "time" or attempts to stop the action before two players act behind the rightful player.
b. (Heads-Up) if you attempt to stop the action before one player and before the dealer acts behind you. (Supervisor's discretion)
c.  If you are waiting for a player to act in front of you, you cannot lose your right to action.  All action out of turn becomes null and void and the supervisor will redirect the action back to the player who had not had the opportunity to act on his hand.
d.  In the dealer's opinion substantial action took place too fast, thus not allowing you sufficient time to act on your hand or enough time to be able to stop the action.
e.  If the dealer is directing the action to you and other players "jump the gun" by acting out of turn, this action will become null and void and the supervisor will redirect the action back to you at this time.


As you can see, our card room rules have a slightly different definition of substantial action, but we use TDA substantial action in tournaments. 
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Nick C

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Re: Action out of turn
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2012, 09:47:22 AM »
Tristan,

 I like the way your house rules give example's that cover specific situations. I still believe there are common occurrences that are still not covered. For example:
               a. The player that is skipped by the dealer when directing action.
               b. The player in the last position, that is skipped by the dealer.
I will say that the house dealer must always be counted, as one of the persons, when considering substantial action.

Your Rules:
Substantial Action (losing your right to initiate action on this round)
If you are not facing a bet and it is your turn to act but for whatever reason you do not act on your hand and two or more players act behind you, you will lose your right to initiate to act on this round and your action will be considered a "check".  This action that took place behind you will become binding. Exception:  If the dealer feels that the other players acted too quickly and didn't give you a legitimate chance to act on your hand, then the supervisor can redirect the action back to you, nullifying this "substantial" action.

 The first sentence: If you are facing a bet.... I would translate as follows: When you are under the gun and not facing a bet, or facing a check, you will lose your right to act if substantial action follows.

Your next rule:
When may you lose your right to action and have to forfeit this hand?
If you are faced with a bet and have not acted on your hand and allow two or more players to act on their hands behind you, you have lost your right to action and must forfeit the hand and all monies in the pot.

What is your definition of substantial action? Two or more players? Is the dealer one of those persons?

 


Tristan

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Re: Action out of turn
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2012, 12:13:50 PM »
Yep, you got it right.

Our house rule on substantial action is 2 or more players acting on their hand.  The dealer tapping the table twice before burning a card constitutes an action.  But we follow the TDA definition of substantial action for tournaments, which is:

 "Substantial Action is defined as either: A) any two actions in turn, at least one of which must
involve putting chips in the pot (i.e. any 2 actions except 2 checks or 2 folds); OR B) any
combination of three actions in turn (check, bet, raise, call, or fold)."

Just to clarify though, I did not put the whole of our rules in the last one, only the parts I thought were relevant.  We do have things to cover those situations. 
a.  If the dealer misdirects the action, the player is still responsible to protect their own right to act by calling "time" before substantial action occurs.
b.  On a checked round, last position does not act and does not stop the action before the card is flipped...it will be considered a checked round (if the dealer followed procedure).  When faced with a bet, the action backs up and a premature burn and turn process ensues.


« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 12:55:01 PM by Tristan »
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Nick C

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Re: Action out of turn
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2012, 01:18:00 PM »
Tristan,

 Interesting last statement. Are we saying that pre-mature dealing takes over when the last player to act is skipped by the dealer? Substantial action (as we know it) can not be considered, correct?

Tristan

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Re: Action out of turn
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2012, 01:23:30 PM »
Yeah, on a round where betting took place, if the last player to act was skipped and the dealer pats the table twice and then burns and turns...that is only counted as 1 action behind at our establishment.  So the action is backed up.  Is that what you are asking?
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Nick C

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Re: Action out of turn
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2012, 02:00:57 PM »
Tristan,

 I am all for backing up the action when it is caught in time. If the dealer has already turned the next board card, it has to be treated like a premature deal and the board card can not play. We had similar discussions at last years summit, and I thought, (at the time), that we were drifting into a few different categories for discussion.

 Premature dealing, and out of turn bettors both skipping a player or even multiple players, intentional or otherwise.

JasperToo

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Re: Action out of turn
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2012, 03:23:31 PM »
Nick, I agree with K-lo in his first post.  And generally, I would call the hand dead.  And the reason is simple, if the player allows himself to be skipped then he gets to see if the pot is raised before he commits any chips to the pot.  If the pot is raised to him then he gets to fold without losing anything.  Quite simply, the hand is dead.  However, if it is a post flop thing then he can be considered to have checked and allowed to call any bets when the action gets back to him.  The reason for that is that it would be nearly impossible to prove that is intention wasn't to just check in the first place even though he pointed out that he was skipped.  He certainly would not be allowed to intitiate any action once substantial action occurred.

Nick C

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Re: Action out of turn
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2012, 08:40:24 PM »
Jasper,

 I understand why you feel the way you do about a player allowing the action to pass them by. I would prefer looking at how the proper bettor was skipped by the out of turn player, and the dealer, and the other players? Let's look at TDA #35 Action Out of Turn: Action out of turn will be binding if the action to that player has not changed.

 The rule implies that the action had to be backed up. I'm trying to combine TDA rules #'s 32 (Substantial Action) and 35 (Out of Turn). Either you back up the action after the out of turn with all options open to all players, or if substantial action has followed, the action proceeds around to the skipped player at which time he can fold or call.

 You are looking at the blame being on the skipped player. I am blaming the out of turn player, possibly betting OOT knowing that there is a chance that his bet may be retracted. Who is at fault? A skipped player who intentionally lets action pass him by? Or even worse; the skipped player who intentionally hides his cards from view. They are both guilty and in violation of proper etiquette at the very least. What about the player that is skipped through no fault of his own?

 This is when the skill of the floor person comes into play. How well do you know the player's involved? Is this their first offence? If the player's are unknown, this is when the call is made that is fair and in the best interest of the game.

 Rambling on again. Getting back to the original situation. I'm sorry, but based on the information given I could not justify killing the skipped player's hand. ;)

 

K-Lo

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Re: Action out of turn
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2012, 06:10:24 AM »
Sorry, Nick.  I cannot agree.  When you combine the two rules, I think what you should get is that you back up the action if the missed player did not let "too much" happen, but if he does, he loses his chance to call (and if there was an outstanding bet to be called, then he has not 'paid to play' and his hand must be void). 

There must be an incentive for players to bring attention to irregularities as soon as possible after they occur.  If you allow a player who is facing an outstanding bet to be skipped and then to act last after everyone at the table has acted, he will essentially have "earned" the button every time this occurs and there would be absolutely no incentive for a player to point out the fact that there has been an out of turn action.


Nick C

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Re: Action out of turn
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2012, 07:24:23 AM »
Ken,

 You're blaming the missed player, every time. How does the dealer skip the player, too? If you're playing and the player behind you acts first, who is the guilty party? If the skipped player allowed the action, with intent, the blame would be redirected to him as the guilty party.
On that I agree, however,  I still can't kill the hand.

 What about the player who intentionally bets out of turn, knowing that his bet can be retracted if action changes to him?

 We are getting farther apart on this one.

K-Lo

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Re: Action out of turn
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2012, 09:06:10 AM »
The skipped player knows that he is facing a bet, so he is in the best position to know that it is his turn, and he must speak up when he is missed.  Yes, both the skipped player and the out-of-turn actor are at fault.  But if the skipped player does not speak up immediately once hie is skipped, in my view, he becomes 'more' at fault. 

I do sympathize with your position, however, because I really do not like killing hands that are in play.  If there is some doubt as to whether the skipped player allowed the action continue, I would be willing in the interest of fairness to allow the skipped player to call the outstanding bet rather than killing his hand, despite there having been substantial action.  But I would never wait to give him that option to call or fold after he has the opportunity to see whether every single player left to act in the hand will raise or not before deciding.  That is too big of a reward for not speaking up immediately.

With respect to the player that intentionally bets out of turn, knowing that his bet can be retracted, he will get a warning and then penalties for repeated infractions, and that is clearly provided for in the final rule.  As you know, there is a still a debate as to whether the rule that allows him to retract his bet at all is a good one, but in my mind that is a separate issue and surely not reason enough to justify giving the button to a skipped player every time he is missed.

Tristan

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Re: Action out of turn
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2012, 10:08:36 AM »
Agreed.  I see your point as well Nick.

I would point out that the skipped player is only considered at fault once the action has went two or more players AND the player having adequate time to call 'time'.  Up until that point the oot player is more at fault.

If 'time' is called it is the oot player that gets the penalty of the skipped player knowing in advance what the oot player wants to do.

If 'time' is not called...the skipped player is taking advantage of the fact they were skipped in order to glean information they should not be privy to, and that is why they get the penalty.

It is similar to accidentally mucked hands in that it is the players responsibility to protect their own interests.
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Action out of turn
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2012, 05:49:42 PM »
Nobody's hand is dead - that is not in the best interests of tournament poker nowadays.  As nick said player 3 can call or fold the raise made by player 4, once that is sorted and if players 6, 1 or 2 decide to 3-bet then player 3 is released from his bind.  Could give player 3 a penalty for allowing the action out of turn but why? Player 4 is the one in the wrong!

Only if the dealer raps and taps out the flop would player 3's hand be dead for me.

Regards
Stuart