Author Topic: The "call amount" before moving in the full raise amount  (Read 7818 times)

Steven

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 68
The "call amount" before moving in the full raise amount
« on: September 19, 2012, 01:01:25 AM »
36: Methods of Raising
In no-limit or pot-limit, a raise must be made by (1) placing the full amount in the pot in one motion; or (2) verbally declaring the full amount prior to the initial placement of chips into the pot; or (3) verbally declaring “raise” prior to the placement of the amount to call into the pot and then completing the action with one additional motion. It is the player's responsibility to make his intentions clear.

I've seen some issues recently with (3)  above.  How "close" to the call amount does the raiser have to put in if he does not put the exact call amount in? And can the call amount be put in with multiple motions?

Example:

Blinds are 75/150
Player announces raise
Player tosses in a 100 chip
Player then tosses in a 1000 chip
How do you rule?!

Example 2)

Blinds are 500/1000
Player announces raise
Player tosses in 600
Can player still raise more than the minimum?

Example 3)

Blinds are 150/300
Player announces raise
Player tosses in a 100 chip
Player tosses in another 100 chip
Player tosses in another 100 chip for a total of 300, the call amount!
Player then announces the full raise to 3000
How do you rule?

These issues focus on whether the call amount needs to be released in one motion or whether the call amount needs to be the exact amount. These issues arise for various reasons like when the bettor doesn't realize the call amount because the blinds are still at the previous level and the new blinds have lready been posted. Or when a player throws the wrong chip in inadvertently. Or various other reasons

It just seems that there may be some leeway allowed when putting in the call amount! And that may be okay!

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3358
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: The "call amount" before moving in the full raise amount
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2012, 05:12:26 AM »
Steven:

 I would rule the minimum in all situations. The verbal declaration insists the player must raise and the rule clearly states that the player make his intentions clear. This is especially necessary when multiple players are competing for the pot.

 To answer your question: How close to the call amount does the raiser have to put in if he does not put the exact call amount in? That would depend on whether raise were announced before his action. There are rules that govern the required amount if multiple chips are placed into the betting area, (or across the bet line). I know of a cardroom that will not consider allowing the completion of a raise if the amount is not exactly double the bet. The standard rule would force a min raise if the player facing a bet placed 50% or more of the bet into the betting area, excluding the single oversize chip rule, of course.

Stuart Murray

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 645
Re: The "call amount" before moving in the full raise amount
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2012, 05:55:25 AM »
1) (Presuming this is Pre-Flop NLHE) I'd allow the raise to go at 1,100 total as the player has not declared any other intent, other than he wishes to raise.

2) (Again presuming pre-flop NLHE) He has not completed the call, and has announced raise prior to tossing in the 600, therefore I still allow him to raise to whatever he wants.

3) There's nothing technically wrong with string calling, the player has already announced a raise before putting the string call in, so again he can raise to 3,000 total as he declared.

I don't necessarily disagree with Nick's post, where he cites that he would hold them to a minimum raise on each occasion, and would uphold any decision by my floor staff to do the same, although I think most of them would rule the same as me here.

Where a player announces raise, then tosses in for example T1,000 with NLHE PF and blinds of 300/600, I would in all likelihood rule that a min raise, as the chip he has released into the pot exceeds the call amount.

Regards
Stuart

K-Lo

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 869
  • @AskTheTD on Twitter
    • Ask the Tournament Director
Re: The "call amount" before moving in the full raise amount
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2012, 09:50:28 PM »
I tend to enforce the raising rule pretty strictly.

1.  I would rule this a minimum raise.  Parts 1 and 2 do not apply and part 3 requires placement of the call into the pot, which has not been done.  Therefore i can't justify his action under any part of the rule, so in my view this is a string raise.  I would tell the player to verbalize the amount he intends to wager to avoid misunderstandings.

2. I would rule this as a minimum raise for the same reason as above.

3. I don't think part 3 of the rule requires that the amount of the call be put out in one motion.  So if he was just trying to count out the call, I would allow the raise.  However, it is done deliberately slowly, e.g. To get a read on opponents seeing of they will fold or not by putting out one chip at a time, i may rule that the bet is unclear and hold him to a minimum raise.

I don't think it is that unfair to apply the raising rule strictly - there are 3 valid ways to make one, and the verbal declaration is particularly easy to do.  I am not sure we need to make further exceptions.

Nick C

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 3358
    • http://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=557;sa=forumProfile
Re: The "call amount" before moving in the full raise amount
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2012, 06:11:21 AM »
Steven,

 It's a good thing that we have a couple members that participate on this forum that are knowledgeable and can correct a wrong answer. I have to say, I was guilty of not reading through your question the way I should have. After reading the responses from  Stuart and K-Lo, I had to rethink each situation (the way I should have initially) and this is what I've decided:

#1 I would consider the raise to be 950 allowing the total 1100. My reasoning is because the player announced raise prior to his action. Although I have no problem with K-Lo's strict enforcement of the raise rule.

#2 I would allow the min raise but, the player did say raise.  :-\ These are tough!

#3 I will agree with both Stuart and K-Lo on this one. The player announced raise, and after his "theatrics' while calling, he announced the amount he intended to raise. the 3000 raise is allowed.

Very interesting questions. Steven, do you have any more like this? Perhaps you can send them elsewhere :)

MikeB

  • Administrator
  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 1156
Re: The "call amount" before moving in the full raise amount
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2012, 10:27:34 AM »
Steven: the last line of Rule 36 is extremely important: "... it is player's responsibility to make his intentions clear...". This has important consequences: a) if player intends one thing but his actions aren't clear, it's not the TD's responsibility to figure out what the player wants to do, but instead to make the best ruling he can based on the actual actions. b) if the player gets a ruling that isn't what he intended, it's the player's fault, not the TD's.  This rule was adopted at the 2009 Summit to clarify these responsibilities.

As to your examples: Note that every one of them is a non-standard action. SO, whenever a player decides to do anything other than standard action, the player is responsible for whatever ruling occurs, it's not the TD's duty to try and figure out the intention behind the non-standard behavior. Maybe the player will get the ruling he wants, maybe he won't. What the TD will try and do is encourage proper behavior so that all players at the table will know what is expected.

Imagine if you had all 3 of these actions, one after the other at a given table... you'd put a stop to that quickly, no doubt. So why even tolerate one exception?

As to how far off a call amount can be, personally I'd say zero. Would I tolerate an "almost" call... it would have to be one small chip off, otherwise I'd probably favor calling that a min raise, the player will be more careful next time.  As to whether the player can put the call amount out in a series of moves... a) absolutely if he declares raise then says "here's my call amount first"... b) otherwise if he has a stack of 100's in his hand and rapid-drops 3 in quick succession then I might accept that if I was in a favorable mood and felt it was unmistakable what the player was doing... c) but if he wants to toss a 100, pause, then go back to his stack and toss another 100... then pause.... forget it, he has min-raised IMO.

Now, notice that you have a range of opinion on this thread. That's to be expected because the player is making non-standard action here. Non-standard action is going to be whatever the TD declares it to be, and it's the player's responsibility if the TD rules it other than what is intended.

Great post, thanks alot!
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 10:28:43 AM by MikeB »

Tristan

  • TDA Member & Veteran Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 453
Re: The "call amount" before moving in the full raise amount
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2012, 06:24:55 PM »
I would allow all 3 of these example to raise the full amount.  There is no rule against string-calling and they followed the rule
and then completing the action with one additional motion.
With no real possible angle, I don't feel like I should make a decision that would possibly alter the outcome of the hand.  With that being said, I would frown upon players that abuse it.
Tristan
@TristanWilberg on Twitter