Author Topic: Eliminated by a chip race  (Read 9227 times)

K-Lo

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Eliminated by a chip race
« on: September 18, 2012, 09:52:15 AM »
Here's an interesting question from one of my TD trainees:

It's a well-accepted fact that a player cannot be eliminated in a chip race.  At the minimum, the player will receive one chip of the lowest denomination to continue in the tournament.

The governing TDA rule is:

20: Chip Race
When it is time to color-up chips, they will be raced off with a maximum of one chip going to any player. The chip race will always start in the No.1 seat. A player cannot be raced out of a tournament: a player who loses his remaining chip(s) in a chip race will be given one chip of the smallest denomination still in play. Players are encouraged to witness the chip race.


WSOP has a similar rule: "....If that player loses the race, he or she will be given one chip of the smallest denomination still in play."

In both cases, the literal wording of the rules suggest that the race is performed first, and then, if the player would be eliminated, he is given one chip.

However, the rules do not explicitly state where that "one chip" comes from.  If no other players have odd chips, it would make sense to introduce an extra chip from the TD's coffers into play.  However, if at least one other player has one or more chips to be raced off, then the question is should the "one chip" be in addition to the chips given out in the race, or is the "one chip" taken from the pool of available chips for distribution? 

E.g.  Player A has only one odd 100 chip left.  Player B has four 100 chips to be raced-off.  One 500 chip is going to be brought in for the chip race in exchange for the 5 remaining 100 chips.  Does A automatically get the 500 chip, even if B wins the race-off?

I believe the wording in RROP is more detailed, and I think the standard answer would be yes - the "one chip" is distributed to the player about to be eliminated before any chips are awarded for the chip race (i.e. in the example, B can never win the 500 chip).  This is, I presume to minimize the effect of introducing additional chips into play.  Do you agree that this is the standard, and if so, do you think that the current TDA rule is unclear? 

Stuart Murray

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Re: Eliminated by a chip race
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2012, 09:58:19 AM »
Literally interpreting the TDA rules suggests an additional chip should be introduced into play if the player loses during the race, I do however have a different approach, where I simply award the first chip of the race irrespective of cards, before issuing any further chips, that keeps the chips in play correct even during this erroneous situation.

Regards
Stuart

K-Lo

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Re: Eliminated by a chip race
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2012, 11:37:29 AM »
Stuart:

I think your approach is likely the "standard".  I have explained that we try to avoid issuing any further chips into play, but the concern that my trainee raised was an issue of "fairness" - i.e. is it "fair" that the extra chip should be taken from the pool of chips to be distributed to everyone else (especially in the later stages where there is chipping up to larger chip dominations)? 

In the example I gave, where there were two players and the other player had the short-stack outchipped 4-1 for the race, he asked "why bother having the race with the player then at all"?  I kind of see the point - is there any other reason for awarding the player with the lone chip first other than trying to keep the amount of chips in play consistent?

(I'll admit that for the longest time I thought it was correct to add an "extra" chip if the player did not gain the chip through the normal race procedure.)

K

Steven

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Re: Eliminated by a chip race
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2012, 02:28:51 PM »
What if multiple players were to be eliminated? Sounds like they'd all be awarded a new chip, thereby introducing additional chips into play.

It's a bit of an extreme, but it could happen!

Example:
5 players each have only 1 100-chip left in their "stack" and these 5 players are the only ones in the race off!  Sounds like they'd all be awarded one 500-chip!

I'm figuring this is kind of far fetched but just food for thought!  I personally don't think there's too much of a problem by introducing the additional chips. Just find a way to account for them!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 02:33:51 PM by Steven »

Steven

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Re: Eliminated by a chip race
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2012, 04:46:10 PM »
To carry this "extreme" a bit further, consider this!

Same situation as previous post with 5 players left with one 100 chip apiece, and ANOTHER player left with one 500 chip and 4 100 chips!

So if you start awarding the "short" stacks first w/o a race, then each of the 5 will get a single 500 chip and the 900 stack will be left with 500, now tied with the other 5! (but presumably far behind the rest of the field).

This is again quite extreme! However I think there might be some cases in which it could  make a difference in bubble or payout transition scenarios in which the player with 900 would really like to have 2 chips instead of one for the next hand because the guys with one chip might be forced to ante their last chip and the guy with 2 chips would still have money behind!

I vote for the race off and then award an extra chip to anyone who was eliminated!

K-Lo

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Re: Eliminated by a chip race
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2012, 08:51:26 PM »
Quote from: Steven
I vote for the race off and then award an extra chip to anyone who was eliminated!

I'd support that!   :D

(but I think it'll be a bit of an uphill battle)

Stuart Murray

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Re: Eliminated by a chip race
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2012, 05:45:08 AM »
I think it's a bit extreme, I have probably done somewhere in the region of 2,000 chip races during the last few years and only ever had to award a player who is faced with being raced out twice in all that time.

K-Lo

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Re: Eliminated by a chip race
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2012, 06:30:09 AM »
I agree that these situations are extremely rare.  I suppose the argument is that when it does happen on those rare occasions, what is likely going to cause the least amount of fuss with the players - my guess is that introducing the extra chip is less likely to cause grief.

(I'm not losing sleep over it though either way.)

chet

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Re: Eliminated by a chip race
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2012, 08:04:41 AM »
Finally Stewart and K-Lo bring some sense to this discussion.  Thank you both!!

Brian Vickers

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Re: Eliminated by a chip race
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2012, 01:21:48 PM »
You can take it out of the "extreme" and still make a valid argument for adding an extra chip in play after the race:
3 players are in the chips race.  2 players have one 100 chip left and that is all their chips.  1 player has three 100 chips but still has more behind.  The guy with 3 chips wins the race.  The other two would be eliminated, therefore you have to give them each one chip.  Problem is there is only 1 chip for the race so you have to add a chip in.  Now, you could say that chips distributed for the race will be used first, and in the case where additional chips are needed to keep a player in the tournament that you go to the cabinet and grab one, but I think the least problems are going to come from just always adding an extra chip in play after the race.

Tristan

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Re: Eliminated by a chip race
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2012, 06:38:05 PM »
I like adding a chip...less dispute that way.
Tristan
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K-Lo

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Re: Eliminated by a chip race
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2013, 06:38:14 PM »
I had another comment on chip races...

Suppose you are coloring up 1K chips to 5K, and there are only two 1K chips at your table.  I believe the "standard" is not hold the race and remove the 1K chips from play, and I believe Robert's Rules has support for this.  I've heard some comments that this approach is outdated, and that there should not be situations where chips are simply removed from play.

Thoughts?

Tristan

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Re: Eliminated by a chip race
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2013, 06:54:18 PM »
I would take the 2 chips.  No race.
Tristan
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Stuart Murray

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Re: Eliminated by a chip race
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2013, 11:49:22 AM »
I would take the 2 chips.  No race.

^^ This ^^