Author Topic: Sidepot mucking  (Read 2878 times)

Steven

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Sidepot mucking
« on: August 20, 2012, 03:50:19 PM »
Rule 11:   Face Up for All-Ins
All cards will be turned face up without delay once a player is all-in and all betting action by all other players in the hand is complete.


I have some questions regarding mucking vs face-up in side pot situations:

One player is all-in and two other players are still competing, then the action completes:

1) If there is no side pot (i.e., no further betting after the all-in), do all hands then get turned up (no hands can be mucked)?

2) If there is a side pot, do we first revert to the showdown order for the side pot, permitting the "second to show" to muck without showing the "losing" hand? Or must all hands be turned face up anyway?

The situation I saw was the first, in which there was no side pot. At showdown, one player showed first even though there was no betting action on the river, then the other player mucked and pushed his hand into the muck. The all-in player ended up scooping anyway. I thought though that maybe the player shouldn't have been allowed to muck.

Thanks for your thoughts -- Steven




chet

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Re: Sidepot mucking
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2012, 04:49:01 PM »
Steven:

For example #1:  As soon as all betting is complete, regardless of whether it is pre-flop or after the river, ALL hands must be turned face-up and the dealer must prevent hands from being mucked.  There are several reasons, but IMHO the most important is to prevent chip dumping from one player to another.

For example #2:  Each pot is awarded in reverse order in which they were created.  Only the hands applicable to the pot be awarded should be turned face up.  For example,  You have players 1, 2, 3 and 4.  Player 1 goes all in pre-flop, players 2, 3 and 4 call.  The flop is dealt and player 2 goes all in, players 3 and 4 call.  You now have two pots, the main pot with all four players involved and a side pot with only players 2, 3 and 4.  Players 3 and 4 check the Turn and the river is dealt.  Player 3 goes all in and player 4 calls.  You now have 3 pots, the main with all 4 players, side pot #1 with players 2, 3 and 4 and side pot #2 with only players 3 and 4.  As soon as player 4 called the all in of player 3 after the river was dealt, the dealer should have those two players, and only those two players turn their hole cards face up.  Side pot #2 is awarded to the player with the best hand.  Since both these players are involved with side pot #1, their hands remain face up on the table and the dealer tells player #2 to turn his hand face up.  Side pot #1 is awarded to the best of the hands between players 2, 3 and 4, all three of these hands remain face up.  Now you are at the main pot, the dealer tells player 1 to turn his hand face up.  Instead the player tries to muck his hand, the dealer MUST prevent that hand from being mucked and it is turned face up.  The main pot is awarded to the best hand of the four players.  At no time in an all in situation should the dealer allow a hand to be mucked before it is turned face up. 

Chet

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Re: Sidepot mucking
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2012, 04:54:28 PM »
Agreed with Chet.  If you are following TDA rules, then everyone who is eligible for the side and/or main pots must show so long as at least one person is all in.