Author Topic: Player Present / Eligible for Hand (Rules 26 and 27)  (Read 7050 times)

Steven

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Player Present / Eligible for Hand (Rules 26 and 27)
« on: August 14, 2012, 04:35:38 PM »
Player Present / Eligible for Hand
26:   At Your Seat
A player must be at his seat by the time all players have been dealt complete initial hands in order to have a live hand. A player must be at his seat to call time.
27:   Action Pending
A player must remain at the table if he has a live hand.



Just want clarification of how you are enforcing Rule 27.  The wording isn't completely clear as to the penalty involved (Rule 26 definitely implies that hand would be dead if not "at your seat"). I believe however, that Rule 27 implies that walking away from a live hand would require the hand to be killed. Additionally, a penalty can definitely be enforced, as walking away then gives players behind (or even ahead, esp. if the button walks away) a definite advantage.

1) So when would you declare the hand dead if one were to walk away?  I recently saw a situation where a live hand briefly walked away in order to get a quick view of an all-in situation at another table, when it was down to 2 tables in a big tournament. Players at the first table of course were asking for his hand to be declared dead.

2) If a player starts to leave a live hand with action pending, should a dealer or another player "remind" the player to stay? Or would that cross the line of one player to a hand?

3) What is your nominal penalty for leaving with action pending? I think it might depend on how it affected the play (i.e., did someone else gain a huge advantage knowing the other hand was dead?).

4) BTW, I believe Rule 26 (at your seat) is written to imply that one is within the vicinity of his "seat', not his chair. I believe the WSOP rules (Rule 80) clarified this situation to specify how close, and to distinguish "seat" from "chair"  Basically, the person must be within reach of his chair. I know of at least one situation where the TD was interpreting Rule 26 as requiring that the player be sitting down in his chair when the last card is dealt to the button I believe that to be too strict. I think it would be good if the TDA qualified Rule 26 similar to how the WSOP did, in order to give better definition to this rule.

Thanks,
Steven



« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 04:41:37 PM by Steven »

Nick C

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Re: Player Present / Eligible for Hand (Rules 26 and 27)
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2012, 07:28:04 PM »
Steven,

 Your request makes sense to me.

K-Lo

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Re: Player Present / Eligible for Hand (Rules 26 and 27)
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2012, 06:26:33 AM »
When talking about situations where a player was at his seat to start the hand but for whatever reason does not "remain" at the table during the play of the hand as required by Rule 27, I am generally reluctant to declare hands automatically dead, preferring instead to select an appropriate penalty to be applied at the end of the hand, depending on the circumstances. Reminding the player that his hand is still live and that he must stay at the table seems reasonable to me.

JasperToo

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Re: Player Present / Eligible for Hand (Rules 26 and 27)
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2012, 06:55:05 AM »
I have found that the language of the TDA rule is generally being interpreted to mean a player must be within arms reach of his chair and generally attentive to the proceedings in order for his hand to remain live when the last card comes off the deck.  I suppose some specificity in the language to that effect would not hurt.

As to a player leaving the table with action pending; I would not declare a players hand dead because he jumped up to see action at the next table, leaving his cards capped, waiting his turn at action.  If action got back to him and he was still watching the other table then I would likely kill the hand and and least give a warning if not a single hand penalty.  The rule as I see it applies to folks that are clearly leaving their hands unattended to go off to the bathroom or whatever.  Otherwise we would have to kill the hands of all those championship final table players at the WSOP who get up and go to the rail when they are in a big hand.

I do not think any player at the table or the dealer should be yelling for the player that is observing the other tables action or reminding them to stay at the table.  They should let it happen and then inform the TD.

Nick C

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Re: Player Present / Eligible for Hand (Rules 26 and 27)
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2012, 07:37:10 AM »
Gentlemen,

 Since we are talking about tournaments, I would say the rules could use further clarification. When a player is absent from the table in a cash game, he is dealt out. In tournament play they are dealt in. The question then becomes when can you kill his hand?

 The old rules used to consider the distance "within earshot." We would also wait for the action to return to the absent players seat before killing the hand. However, the most recent method, killing the hand as soon as the last down card is dealt is better (IMO). This would also be in compliance with TDA At Your Seat.

JasperToo

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Re: Player Present / Eligible for Hand (Rules 26 and 27)
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2012, 09:49:26 AM »
Nick, your right on the time to kill the hand is when that last card comes off the deck and the player is not "at his seat" being the best time.  We kill them even as the player is walking up to his seat from wherever he was because he was not 'at his seat' when that last card comes off.