Author Topic: Checking out of turn, then raising  (Read 18560 times)

Dave Lamb

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Re: Checking out of turn, then raising
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2012, 08:18:51 PM »
Deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated.

I do not want TD's to decide what is deliberate and what is not. Keep it simple-the action is OOT and here is the consequence for it. Rule 35 is perfectly written to explain the remedy:
35: Action Out of Turn
Action out of turn will be binding if the action to that player has not changed. A check, call or fold does not change action. If action changes, the out of turn bet is not binding and is returned to the out of turn player who has all options including: calling, raising, or folding. An out of turn fold is binding.

As Mike B. points out, any player acting OOT needs to incur a penalty if they do it again after being warned that the action out of turn is not a legal strategy. I give every player a free one time OOT but warn them that repeating it is subject to a one round penalty. Once I have notified the player, I no longer care WHY they cannot manage to act in turn, I just keep my promise and award them the penalty.

Nick C

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Re: Checking out of turn, then raising
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2012, 09:36:55 PM »
Hello Dave,

 I like what you wrote: Deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated!

 I have a question. Player A bets 100, Player C raises to 200 (OOT), If the action is backed-up to Player B (proper bettor), does the rule mean that if Player B raises to 200, Player Ccan fold, call, or raise? I believe that this is the only action, from Player B, that will allow all options to the OOT.

 If I understand the rule, the out of turn must stand unless the proper player initiates a bet, or raises a bet to him.

 Some of the problems that I have with out of turn:
#1) Can the OOT be retracted if the dealer backs-up the action to the proper bettor, before substantial action?
#2) Is the out of turn handled the same way when two or more players are skipped?

Dave Lamb

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Re: Checking out of turn, then raising
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2012, 08:18:30 PM »
Nick says:
 I have a question. Player A bets 100, Player C raises to 200 (OOT), If the action is backed-up to Player B (proper bettor), does the rule mean that if Player B raises to 200, Player C can fold, call, or raise? I believe that this is the only action, from Player B, that will allow all options to the OOT.

Yes, B raising is the only way C is allowed to have all of his options to fold, call or raise.

OOT action that creates substantial action does happen occassionally and we are then compelled to determine whether the skipped players failed to protect the right to bet. As we discuss this rule, it is very clear to me that many TD's are hoping to somehow establish the magic rule that can be used for live games as well as tournaments. The hurdle in live games is that we do not have an effective "punishment/deterrent" to OOT. Any penalty we might mete out could potentially cost us a customer and, in some cases, the very game we are trying to protect with the rule.
Remember that TDA rules are directed to tournament play and that it is wonderful when those rules can be applied to live games but all-encompassing rules are not our main focus.

Nick C

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Re: Checking out of turn, then raising
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2012, 06:16:47 AM »
Hello Dave,

 Thanks for responding to my post. I still have a problem with the substantial action part of my other question:

  Can the OOT be backed-up to the proper bettor, thus correcting the action, or once a player bets OOT Rule #35 must be enforced.

Situation: Johnny bets 200, Sally is skipped by Joe who calls 200. The dealer says 'hold on Joe, the bet is on Sally!" Joe apologizes, retracts his OOT and Sally calls the 200.
What are the options to Joe?

Situation: Johnny bets 200, Sally is skipped by Joe who calls 200. The dealer says "hold on Joe, the bet is on Sally!" Joe apologizes, retracts his OOT and Sally raises to 400.
What are the options to Joe?

 Situation: Johnny bets 200, Sally is skipped by Joe who calls 200. Dave responds by calling 200 before the dealer has a chance to back-up the action. Two players have now bet OOT. Can the action be backed-up to Sally? or does substantial action now apply?

I know, in cash games, the action is backed-up when a player bets out of turn. There are many instances when a player in the 1 seat bets out of turn because he didn't see the player in the 10 seat (the dealer is obstructing his view). The dealer would correct the OOT immediately and the play would continue without incident.

After all of this, my short question is: Can we ever back-up the action to the proper bettor without strict enforcement of TDA #35?